major reworking of garden plan

I made a flying visit to Australia at end June to see my Gran who was very ill, and while there I managed to go see Amherst. This was my first time at the property in person and to my relief it was wonderful. Really green, far more so than I'd expected, so I was very happy. However, it turned out I'd totally misunderstood where the gas pipeline was, so that Prue's plan for the garden doesn't work.


Email to Prue on my return home from Australia - 4th July 2004

While I was there I managed to get a few hours at Amherst, in the late
afternoon of my first day there. To my relief, it's wonderful. I
think it helped it had rained quite a bit so it was all very green,
but the slopes / layout of the land was better than I'd expected too.
There's only a very small part that's flat, and gentle rolling rising
to a slightly steep peak on one edge. But all is workable. Also,
there weren't that many rocks, I'd been envisaging it almost like
gravel, but it wasn't that at all. And the rocks there are, on the
quartz outcrop, are a lovely rose-pink colour. The house is a wreck,
which we knew, but it has good vibes so we can restore it. The dam is
huge and was filling up.

However, after having seen it in person, unfortunately we have to
change the design. For two reasons... first, parts of it won't work
with the lie of the land, eg the lake would look silly as it's not in
a natural spot for it. But more importantly, there is a natural gas
pipeline running under the land which is an easement - we can't build
anything, including planting trees for 20m around it (10m either
side). We knew the easement existed but for some reason had thought
it was way over the other side of the block. Turns out we'd got it
upside down and it runs almost right past the front door of the house!

Don't worry though, I don't think it will stop us having an amazing
garden, we just have to reorient it. When I was at the block we took
some more precise measurements (give or take a metre or two). So I've
now drawn up a map which has the positioning of the house, dam, and
existing trees near the house more accurately. Also, we've made a
start at reworking the plans, using your original design as
inspiration. There are still a lot of blanks, but I wanted to show
you where we'd got to so far, and to see if you had any ideas for how
to fill it in.

Here's some pictures of the plan:
















Some of the things that I've changed - but obviously very flexible
still so if you think any of it wouldn't work, or you have better
ideas, let me know.

* Allowed space to extend the house. There is only the one direction
we can extend it, so even though we don't know yet exactly what it
will look like, we know roughly the area it will occupy

* Changed the layout of the driveway to match where the entrance is.

* Drawn in stables, hen house etc. The stables in particular need to
be in the area where they are on the map so that the roof will face
the right direction to catch the most sun (as we're going to put the
solar system on there), plus so that the roof is facing away from the
house - so the panels are largely out of sight. We figure too there
will probably be a garage between the stables and the house, but
haven't worked out precisely that bit yet.

* Added in a terraced planting section, around the part that gets
steepest to the back right of the house, because it just seemed like
it was crying out for it. Then building on that we totally rethought
the pool, so as to put it in a spot where it gets views with the
terraced section as a backdrop. It also means we can put the pool on
the other side of the easement, and have the easement area as grass /
etc (e.g., for cricket, boules, etc) between the pool and the house.

* I haven't drawn in the lake with jetty, as there is really only one
spot that it could go, which is in the distance to the far side of the
property. It would give a great outlook and I'd still like to do it
but I suspect it will be one of the last things we do because of the
cost, plus because it will cover the best grazing pasture on the
block. (Speaking of grazing, there were about 30 sheep on it, and
there was loads of sheep / cow / roo poo everywhere that I'm sure
would help to improve the soil if we ploughed it in). Instead, to
satisfy my water craving, I've allowed for two mid-sized ponds in the
main part of the garden which cycles water from the dam. I even
planned in for a little pump house next to the dam, as I figure it
will need a bit of machinery to make it happen!

* I've combined the meditation pond / gazebo thing with the summer
house / reading room, with the idea of having a cabin thing that is
partly on land and partly on stilts protruding into the bottom pond.
I saw this done once on a DIY show and it was gorgeous. It seems like
it would combine my desire for a jetty (where I could dangle my feet
in the water) with all the other things.

* Planned in a vegetable garden with 3 brick walls and the other with
a wire or wrought iron-like fence facing the driveway, positioned so
as to get the maximum amount of sun. The other reason for having the
3 brick walls is that it will allow us to put a shadecloth or netting
roof over it if need be. Then I drew in the orchard in the section
leading down to the summerhouse just because it felt like it suited.

* We've scrapped the idea of the tower. We might build a treehouse or
little cabin instead, on top of the quartz outcrop, but that will be a
later stage thing. Given the land is so sloped anyway we won't need
a tower to get a view of the whole garden, we'll just go to the top of
the terraced section.

Photos of Amherst

Here are some photos of Amherst, which collect together all the ones that Mum and Dad have taken as well as some others which had to be scanned
http://www.ofoto.co.uk/I.jsp?c=ghiijyl.qc9gkmx&x=0&y=ct2vpd

initial tweaks to the garden plan

After we'd done some more thinking about the plan, we had a few more ideas...

My email with initial tweaks to the plan - 2nd June 2004

Last night I looked some more at the design, and I still love it.
It's taken me a little while to digest, when we met I was just blown
away by the thought of it, it suddenly seemed to have moved a step
closer to reality! Now I've thought about it some more though, I do
have a few tweaks I'd like to make. Given that we have to rework it
anyway to move the driveway, would you be able to make these other
changes at the same time? If you disagree with any of them, let me
know, as you're the expert, but thought I'd ask anyway.

* Could the hothouse be bigger, say double in size. The compost area
can just be shunted sideways further

* Could the stable be bigger. Also, could the ducks have a separate
house from the chooks, down near the lake, as I figure they will want
to swim on it. The chooks it makes sense to keep near the house so
it's easy to collect eggs in the AM, etc, but the ducks don't need to
be. Eventually my hope is that they would go slightly wild and
free-range anyway

* Near the tower perhaps, could there be an outdoor picnic / BBQ area?
e.g., it could be a kind of room made of trellis that we could grow
plants up and over for shade, and perhaps the BBQ might be on the
bottom floor of the tower. Perhaps one side of the tower could be
solid, and thus a wall we could use to project films onto (Dave has
this great projector that we use here in London to project onto the
wall of the conservatory, but it'd be even more amazing outside).
It'd be nice down there near the lake. Not that we'd use it loads,
but still it'd be nice. We might even make the tower square, with a
proper enclosed room at the top, ala Sissinghurst, then it could be a
guest room. :-)

* Was the path near the petanque lawn where you've drawn the lines
across the part you were thinking of having trellised? If so, that's
brilliant. Could we extend is also along the rest of the path, near
where the olives are at the moment?

* In terms of the olives, could they be moved to behind the herb
garden, perhaps running into the orchard? That way Dave has room to
plant more if he wants. Also then I can use the bed where they
currently are for flowers.

* I love having the herbaceous border near the house. I just wanted
to check, how long will it look good for? Is it possible to plant it
so there'll be something nice to look at in almost every season - or
at least spring, summer, to mid-autumn? If not, then perhaps the
herbaceous border could move to where the olives are currently and I
could plant a different kind of border there. Or perhaps I just want
something that gives the effect of a herbaceous border but is
technically mixed. :-)

* Just so I don't forget it, could you mark a small pet cemetery area
out near the clump of trees in the distance? Not that we'd
necessarily build it right away, but it'd be nice to have it on the
plan.

And now here are two potentially more difficult changes...

First, I don't know the shape of the house yet, and I won't for
certain until Sept at the earliest when we see it. But, one thing for
sure, it's going to be larger than what's there currently, since I
want it to have a minimum of 2 bedrooms and I want the rooms to be all
quite spacious. All the plans I've come up with so far involve a
similar shape externally, it's just the rooms inside that change.
I've attached a jpg showing this, do you think you could adjust the
garden plan around it? There are verandahs all the way round too,
except on the side near the driveway. I'm really sorry, I know you
asked me for this ages back, but it's taken me a long time to come to
it. I hope it isn't too much of a pain, I think it just means pushing
the pool, etc down a little, and making the patio areas with the big
tree a different shape. Then, in the gaps between the old house and
the extension, that could be a garden area, with a part for
ferns/hydrangeas/etc, perhaps even tucked under the new extension
depending on the slope? The other side of it could be storage - for
tools etc, which'd be nice to have them handy to the garden areas.



Second, I would really like to have a big lavendar/yarrow/sage bed. I
figure it's the kind of thing that would take care of itself and
thrive out in the hot sun. I don't mind where it is, I had some ideas
- e.g., maybe near the stone maze, or maybe along the top side of the
driveway as you came to the house?. The effect I want to get is like
in the attached picture.

Garden plan - 1st pass

Prue came to London for the Chelsea garden show and we met up with her for a drink on Tuesday 1st June. It was great to meet her in person and have a proper chat, although unfortunately I was really busy at work so couldn't stay for lunch like I'd hoped. Anyway, we had a few drinks and a chat and she showed us her first draft of the plan. It's amazing how well she'd managed to fit in everything we asked for. There were a few things to tweak, like the driveway was in the wrong place, but aside from that our initial reaction was that we loved it. :-)

Dad starting preparations

Dad has started arranging things for Amherst, in preparation for when we visit in October and want to start planting. He installed a tank a few weeks before this too to start collecting rainwater from the house roof

Email from Dad - 20th May 2004

Hi Lyn and Dave

I have bought 250 m rolls of 2" aggi coil drain pipe for the Amherst place. A friend was selling for a friend new rolls worth $250 new price for $50 each. Last of a lot of 25 rolls planned for grapevine irrigation. Daisy's garden and soil sell 20 m lenths for $25 so the price is very good. These are for utilizing runoff water from the tank once it is full. When you have planted downhill of the tank, shrubs, trees, etc, you have this pipe passing underground in a shallow trench to the site of the trees, and encicle the trees with a few coils, and pass on to the next tree with the remainder of the pipe and so on until runoff water has been disipatted thoroughly and there is no loss to the spill over of the tank. I will recover the cash of $250 , as I bought the last 5 rolls, from the use of your bankcard to buy food and petrol. I would have consulted you but this was just too good to pass-up and I had the time today to secure it. I will store it here for now. Let me know if I have acted badly on your behalf. I will keep the pipe if you don't actually want it. But moving water in tubes is by far the most effective and efficient. The number of coils around a site increases as you get further from the source of runoff, and by experimenting before digging in you can engineer perfect distribution of water to the various plants served by each line. Careful placement of the lines is needed to permit the loss of water enroute to the intended plants to be useful for irrigation of areas of lawn, edges, etc. You get the idea I am sure. Love, Dad

PS Good news about your planned flight, and to be here for my next birthday. You will have a wonderful time here, and make many contacts. In fact I will give you the neighbor"s contacts that I gathered last month. I said you wanted to contact them and make their acquaintence. Tom and Kath Dixon: 340 Lillicor Rd.,Amherst 3371
Ph 03 54632339 email tsk_dixon @yahoo.com.au
They are across the road and up the hill a stones throw away Tex Williams and wife Charlie Ph 03 5463-2063 345 Lillicur Rd. Amherst 3371 This is your closest neighbor. I said he could put his stock on your pasture, but not to overgraze, and that you would be in touch about it anyway. He hasn't yet put any on. His sheep go under his fence regularly, however, as I saw several go under, and then back again to his side when I approached them in the car.

The carter of sand, screenings, road materials, etc and a man with contacts for equipment for dams, roads, etc is also a contact I made as he delivered for the tank. Dennis and Warren Bond Mother is delightful and is named Marjorie. She let me leave the tank out the front of her place the night I took it up and overshot the turn to Lillicur Rd., and ran low on petrol so had to go off to Ailsa's to sleep without going to the block. 20 Palmerston ST, Talbt 3371 Ph 03 5463 2295 Mother's number where business is based Dennis' mobile 0428-506-776 He also does septic tank installation

wishlist for the garden

To help Prue, we wrote a wishlist of things we did and didn't want in the garden at Amherst. It was quite amusing to do as well as more helpful in a pragmatic way than the dream photos!

Things that we want

BBQ area with a permanent table and space for an umbrella/shade cloth. Also there should be a roof over the BBQ area

Bar area (not necessarily near the BBQ area but it could be)

Quiet reading / meditation area

Petanque playing area where it won’t matter if the grass etc end ups with lots of bumps

Small swimming pool inside a secure brick walled area, so we don’t have to have dorky looking pool security fences. Swimming pool will not be very big and no more than 8 ft deep at the deepest part and it will have steps to get in. It will be around 8 metres long by 3m wide. There needs to be space for sun loungers etc alongside. Also, I would like it to feel secluded and not necessarily entirely in full sun in all places (e.g., it would be good to have trees overhanging in some parts and we’ll just deal with the hassle of leaves). Ideally this would be near to the BBQ area but they would be distinctly separate areas

A pool house, ie: a kind of building that is near the pool that has a place to store towels, get changed, put away deckchairs when it's out of season, etc etc. I don't know what this looks like yet, but there needs to be a space planned for it in the section of the garden that has the pool.

A rotating summerhouse. Ideally this would be like a room with french doors, etc that we could use as a writing or reading or painting room, that would sit on a base and rotate so it could face in whatever direction we wanted. They have them here so you can rotate to follow the sun; that might be good in Australia in the winter, but I expect in summer we would probably be turning away from the sun to keep it cool! Ideally this would be positioned somewhere that there would be a variety of views from different directions to make the most of the flexibility, maybe at one tip of the property up on the hill? You can get them here in ready-made kits. e.g.,
http://www.source-antiques.co.uk/summerhouse.asp (this company say they ship all over the world)
http://www.scottsofthrapston.co.uk/downloads/gazebos.pdf

Cricket net, which also could be inside a walled area. This needs to be about 30 yards long and 10 yards wide at a minimum

Space to play croquet if we are having grass. This doesn’t need to be a formal posh croquet lawn but just a space for informal games

Lake, preferably with a little jetty to sit and dangle our feet over or a very shallow entrance bit we can line with pebbles for wading in. I don’t want it to be muddy at the bottom and I don’t want the water to be brown. Ideally the lake will have some waterlilies

Dovecote, which could even be a full-blown dovehouse you can walk into. Even if we can’t get doves in Australia perhaps we could entice some other friendly birds to stay there.

Tree seat – ie: a big tree somewhere that we can build a circular seat around

Potting shed

Lean-to style greenhouse in one of the walled gardens

Old fashioned style cold frame things

Vegetable garden

Steps in some parts of the garden

Herb garden in the broadest sense, so this can include even odd herbs like in a physic garden

Camomile seat or bench

Feeling that the garden is actually an outdoor house, with a series of rooms, each individual, differently sized, but which lead from one into the other with multiple entrances and exits

Decorative fish pond that we can keep a few pet koi or goldfish in. This needs to be well shaded. In fact I love ponds so the more ponds the better

Use of small fountains etc to create a calming and cooling feeling but not formal fountains… more things like water trickling down a wall, etc

If it is at all possible, I would love to have a bog garden even in just a small part. I figured the only thing would be perhaps in the sewerage recycling bit where it will get a lot of water and fertiliser?!! Or perhaps I just have to bury a pool and plant into that. I like those prehistoric looking bog plants, and things like gunnera manicuta (sp?).

Lots of shade trees which are tall enough to walk under

Use of trellises to add height e.g., using grapevines, kiwifruit, passionfruit etc to act as a roof in some areas

Outdoor lounge room area, with lots of space for lying around on cushions, with a central fire pit. Also a wall that has a flat section that we could project movies onto

Orchard area which has lots of trees with spring blossoms even if it doesn’t give us fruit

Shady woodlandy feel section, even if it is small, because it will be a lovely cool place to retreat to in the heat of summer

Long walk which has trellises etc for things to clamour over

A garden that looks different in each season, or at least some sections of it do

Native plants scattered around the garden rather than there being a special “native” garden for them

Patio area around the house that has shade

Pathways around the garden that are barefoot walkable, and pathways where there is shade, at least dappled, for getting around in summer because I don’t like the heat and I sunburn easily

A place for chickens and ducks to live

A proper serious composting area

Space for a blowsy herbaceous border in the old fashioned sense but on a manageable scale

At least a few places where you can sit to get views down the sweep of the paddocks. One of these could be possibly a tower or tree house?

Sweeping driveway which has symmetrical plantings for at least part of the way

A paddock or two so we can have pet sheep, cow, horses as well as a barn for them

Use of things like mirrors to create interesting perspectives in the garden. Also surprising places e.g., plinthes, alcove to display sculptures, little pot plants, etc

An old fashioned lamppost like in The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe buried somewhere in the midst of the garden

A herb lawn (e.g., thyme/wild oregano/etc) that you can lie on in the sun when its hot and which is fragrant, like at the cemeteries at Gallipoli

A cemetery area, ideally with wrought iron-like fence where we can put ourselves one day as well as pets

A swing that is strong enough for adults to use; ideally something like a tyre swing that hangs from a tree

If it is possible a small fernery (e.g., perhaps we could create a grotto like area for them where they had shade?)

Flowering meadow

Mini-olive grove


Things that we do not want

A tennis court

A formal rose garden that looks skeletal and clipped within an inch of its life for most of the year. I like roses but old fashioned roses that you don’t prune, that just grow wild and clamour over everything. I don’t like roses all grouped together without anything else around

Formal gazebo stuck out in the middle of nowhere as if it’s the main feature. We want the plants to be the stars not the structures

Gum trees with that horrible harsh brown thick craggy bark, or at least not very many of them

A separate kids play area

Giant boulders scattered around

Things that look plastic

Concrete in wide swathes (but it is OK if it doesn’t look like concrete)

Woodchippings

Anything that involves a cupid or dumb statue

Overly modern, stark feel

Overly quaint “English romantic” feel

Topiary figures

photos of garden things I love

As part of pulling together a brief for the garden design for Prue, we've put together an album of photographs of garden features and planting schemes that we liked, which you can view in an Ofoto album here.

UPDATE: I've now put it into book format on Scribd to make it easier to browse...
Garden Ideas (a collection from 2004)


There are 208 photos in total, and if you view them on the fullscreen rather than thumbnails I've put in the description what the particular thing was that I liked about them.

Below are my favourite photos in which I love absolutely *everything*, to give you a flavour:

email minutiae: the chook debarcle

Mum's email talking about the visit on my birthday - 10th April 2004

Hello Lyn and Dave

Just filling you in on the latest news re Amherst, which we visited yesterday = Friday9th. Your birthday Lyn - hope you had a nice time.

We left here about 1.20pm - Dad was late as he had to get some sleep after finishing night shift at 7.30am. Trailer was loaded with windows and things like BBQ - and we went via my new workplace out by airport. All that meant we did not arrive until about 5.30, 6pm. First thing we saw was chooks and ducks in the paddock where horses used to be. Dad stopped there and went to talk to the lady - I walked up the hill. The result was, she refused to consider putting them in shed before they wandered into it of their own free will when dark (only 30 minutes away) and said if the dogs got onto her land she would shoot them. Further said if the other neighbour (seems from that they do not own the long paddock out the back of their place; and it has never had anything on it when we see it) sees any dog on his land he shoots it on sight. They just have to be there it seems, not actually doing anything. We kept dogs tied on leads after that and will not take them again.

We spied out the land and have put a few piles of stone in the corners of the room, maybe. Up almost at top of west ridge. Big stones and rocks there. Good for gravity feed for water for house. Then unloaded trailer in a hurry as a fire several paddocks away got a big flare up and was coming towards us fast. We found the front door of house open, with a brick in front of it to keep it that way - and carpet and bricks arranged in one room inside which I am sure was not like that when we were last there - and I wedged door shut when we left that time. Dad has tied it shut now but I think someone has been in there maybe camping... And I think maybe another weatherboard or two has been removed. I cannot be sure but I think so.

The fire was about out as we left - no need for worry as it turned out. We had seen it as we went past on the way along Lillicur Rd - only a few men there, but water tanker at the ready - burning around the fences. We think now they let it rip in the centre of paddock deliberately and it had nowhere to go then so burnt out. It was so dark when we left we had problems finding the right way to drive - we knew the direction but could not see the faint marks we always drive along and ended up in some slightly longer grass and heading for the dam! The headlights even on high beam were useless for finding the way. We were glad to leave. Consider getting that drive defined by some white stones maybe.

It was nice to see the lights of the few houses in Amherst as we went by. (About 5 - 8 total.) And then Talbot - for the first time we went through the down town area and I really thought Great Great Gran could easily have walked out of any of the shops there. None operating, and only one, a modern milkbar not in main street, open. Pub had a sign saying meals $5 but we did not go in. Next Sunday I will have time to really explore it. But it is a lovely place. If ever you ended up living at Amherst, then I might possibly consider living in Talbot or Clunes if here gets too expensive. I can't see the housing in Talbot would be hugely expensive - yet, anyway. Clunes is bigger but same style. I think it even has a bus to Ballarat!!! And a nursing home. A thriving metropolis, no less.

On the way in along Lillicur Rd, after passing the burn off, we saw on one of the paddocks three kangaroos. Must have been big ones to be so easily seen from the road when they were at the back of the blocks. The way they bounced made them obviously not a cow, amongst which they were hopping. There were fresh roo or wallaby droppings on the track I walked up from your dam to house, too.

Dad and I are concerned about people getting in to your place and stealing things if not damaging it more or setting fire to it. He is wondering about spending a few days there, demolishing the back lean to and using the boards from it to repair the house itself - and glazing windows, and then putting something over them to stop breakage of glass. And sealing up one room, locking it.. In other words, making it as secure as we can. But we know you do not like the boarded up look. You will need to talk to Dad on that.

Peter has got about 300 bricks free for you - that will do for the cabin room which will have an open air cook place = BBQ beside it. Dad is saying a 12ft square room with about 6 ft veranda out front and about 8 ft on south side at the front end of which will be "stove " = BBQ woodfired, and at the back of which will be the tanks and a bit further up the dunny or whatever. Fire can't be at back as planned as trees in the way. Also want the place in trees not open and not sticking out like a sore thumb from your place. So it can be seen, your place from this site, but this place will not be obvious. Dad said if he used palings on the outside, treated and stained that dark colour it should blend in with the trees and used the local stones as the visible brick bits of the open air kitchen then it would be OK. You will need to talk to him though as he was not definite.

my reply - 13th April 2004

Thanks for taking all that stuff up to Amherst. Dave has left a message for the planning guy, but hasn't managed to speak to him again yet. So, tell Dad not to do any building until we have spoken to the planning guy to confirm it's OK - unless he's prepared to take the chance that we may need to change things. I figure it will be OK but it's important we do things by the book, this early on anyway. At least Dad's been able to clear out some things from his house anyway.

Please thank Pete for the bricks.

I'm sorry to hear about the dogs. I hope you didn't get too angry at the neighbour; perhaps they have had a bad experience with dogs previously? I wouldn't be surprised if there are wild dogs that live in the State Forest. It would be very distressing if you had chickens and ducks as pets (which it seems like she does) to have them attacked by dogs. Also, I can understand why she would be irritated by her pets being asked to suffer and miss out on some of their time outside (not to mention the added hassle for her of having to round them up) just so some "stranger" dogs could go running off a lead.

I don't suppose you got the name / address of the neighbours yet? We would like to write them a letter and send it from here , just to introduce ourselves and say hello, to start things off on the right foot. The real estate agent didn't know and we couldn't find any listings in the phone book. We're going to ask the planning guy if he can help, at least in terms of addresses, but I'm not even sure if they have postal deliveries to the houses out there or whether everything is PO Box in the town. Anyway, if you could ask them when you go up next week, that would be nice.

Dave says that threatening to shoot dogs that are treespassing is fairly common practice in the country in his experience, in the sense that farmers don't like to have their animals terrorised and lambs/etc murdered by runaway dogs so they don't take any chances. In practice however I'd imagine they would shoot first to attempt to scare off the dog rather than at it to kill, unless of course the dog was hurting one of their animals. Why can't the dogs be tied up to a big central post while they're up there and not being walked? They could be on long long tethers, they'd still have a good time and it's not like there's any trees etc for them to get tangled up in.

If someone is camping in the house then I figure there's not much we can do to prevent it. I doubt they would be taking the weatherboards off if they were camping there; it defeats the purpose. It could always be that the previous owners came back to clear out some of the things they had left there, and had wedged the door open to make it easier while carrying things out. Was the old futon still there? That was in the pictures you sent me; I thought it was odd they left it. Even if it is people camping, the harder we make it for them to get in, the more likely they are to do damage. If they're not hurting anything then I don't mind. Perhaps next time if you think someone has been there you can leave a note... not saying that they can't use it but just asking them to look after it? We will talk to Dad. I figure, the house has survived for the past 20 years as it is; so it's not likely to be torched in the next 10 years unless we do something to antagonise the people who used to visit it. I'd prefer they didn't come but as I can't afford a full time security guard, or to pay for the insurance on an unoccupied property, perhaps it's better just to attempt to make it watertight, but not to lock the door. If someone is visiting it for camping, I doubt they'd smash the glazing if they were able to open a window? We will try and talk to Dad in the next few days anyway.