It's only a few months until Dave is next back to work on the place. One of the things that Dad would like Dave to do this trip is to get the area for the soaker field sorted.
We've installed a treatment plant for the sewerage/greywater, so that it can be recycled. In order to work, however, it needs to have an area where the cleansed water from it goes.
Because we don't want to fuss with chlorine (risk of smell, bad for environment, more cost), we need for this to be dispersed in pipes that are underground.
There are two areas that we would ideally like to have soaker fields - the long border, and the secret garden (see rough plan).
The first soaker field to go in though will be the one in the long border. This means therefore that we need to get the terracing done for the path/border area. Which means that we need to start the new house excavation, in order to get the necessary dirt.
I'd originally hoped not to have to start this until we were back, but now it seems unavoidable. So Dave may get some tractor action on this trip, after all :-)
Showing posts with label utilities. Show all posts
Showing posts with label utilities. Show all posts
Sunday, May 02, 2010
Thursday, April 09, 2009
The big day arrives: installing the Ozzikleen tank
Woohoo! The Ozzikleen tank is in!
It arrived on my birthday, which I guess makes it a birthday present of sorts... :-)
Ozzikleen tank gets installed from Lynette on Vimeo.
It arrived on my birthday, which I guess makes it a birthday present of sorts... :-)
Wednesday, April 08, 2009
Dave digs a big hole
The big test for the tractor came when we needed to do a fairly major excavation, to fit the wastewater treatment tank.
It took Dave nearly 2 days, but he did it. :-)
... and for a taster of the full noisy experience, here's a short clip:
It took Dave nearly 2 days, but he did it. :-)
Dave digs a big hole from Lynette on Vimeo.
... and for a taster of the full noisy experience, here's a short clip:
Thursday, February 26, 2009
to chlorinate or not to chlorinate...
When I researched Ozzikleen online to see what others had said about it, I didn't come across much. But there was one mention that gave me cause for alarm, in a 2006 forum posting:
From Aussies Living Simply forum (scroll down to about 2/3rds way down)
What a horrendous mistake we made back 3 years ago when we were so new to this game. We were told that we could no longer allow our grey water to run off under the house as it was. We were running a septic tank for our toilet system. Because we were townies and had absolutely no idea about anything to do with owning a rural property we were crapping our daks about the council and felt pressured to do what they told us to do. With a million and one other things that had to be done including building a retaining wall to stop the house from falling off the face of the earth before we could purchase the property we were lured into purchasing a biocycle system (OzziKleen). Now that I have had a chance to do heaps more research I would certainly have gone with another system.
As Frosty points out, it is very expensive (cost us $15,000 with plumbing inc). Worse than that though, because we use such little water there is a really strong chlorine smell that eminates from it when it flushes itself out, which is quite regularly and there is an ongoing cost forever of $60 ( currently) every 3 months to service it. Grrrrrrrrrrrr. I am not saying that it is an inferior product at all, just not what I now would have chosen.
The discussion continued with many pointing out the problems of the chlorine smell with these systems - but then others saying that you didn't always have to add chlorine; that it depended on your council/how it was being used. So I asked Dad to follow up with the local plumber to find out the situation for us.
Dad replied that Malcolm said there was no need to have chlorine if the water from the system went to pipes under compost. The law requires chlorine if it comes to be above the ground before absorption into the earth. He advises not to have chlorine because there is no advantage. The chlorine is not set at a level that will render the water to drinking water standard, or bathing standard either. But it cannot be stored for long unless it has chlorine. Hence if you wish to pump the water from the system into the cistern of your toilets you must chlorinate it. If not, don't chlorinate it.
(And in any case, we aren't allowed to store it even if chlorinated at the moment, so the whole point is moot).
We will definitely be looking to go with a non-chlorinated approach - besides being more environmentally friendly, it will be cheaper and less risk of smell.
From Aussies Living Simply forum (scroll down to about 2/3rds way down)
What a horrendous mistake we made back 3 years ago when we were so new to this game. We were told that we could no longer allow our grey water to run off under the house as it was. We were running a septic tank for our toilet system. Because we were townies and had absolutely no idea about anything to do with owning a rural property we were crapping our daks about the council and felt pressured to do what they told us to do. With a million and one other things that had to be done including building a retaining wall to stop the house from falling off the face of the earth before we could purchase the property we were lured into purchasing a biocycle system (OzziKleen). Now that I have had a chance to do heaps more research I would certainly have gone with another system.
As Frosty points out, it is very expensive (cost us $15,000 with plumbing inc). Worse than that though, because we use such little water there is a really strong chlorine smell that eminates from it when it flushes itself out, which is quite regularly and there is an ongoing cost forever of $60 ( currently) every 3 months to service it. Grrrrrrrrrrrr. I am not saying that it is an inferior product at all, just not what I now would have chosen.
The discussion continued with many pointing out the problems of the chlorine smell with these systems - but then others saying that you didn't always have to add chlorine; that it depended on your council/how it was being used. So I asked Dad to follow up with the local plumber to find out the situation for us.
Dad replied that Malcolm said there was no need to have chlorine if the water from the system went to pipes under compost. The law requires chlorine if it comes to be above the ground before absorption into the earth. He advises not to have chlorine because there is no advantage. The chlorine is not set at a level that will render the water to drinking water standard, or bathing standard either. But it cannot be stored for long unless it has chlorine. Hence if you wish to pump the water from the system into the cistern of your toilets you must chlorinate it. If not, don't chlorinate it.
(And in any case, we aren't allowed to store it even if chlorinated at the moment, so the whole point is moot).
We will definitely be looking to go with a non-chlorinated approach - besides being more environmentally friendly, it will be cheaper and less risk of smell.
Wednesday, February 18, 2009
more info on Ozzikleen system
Dad sends more information about the Ozzikleen wastewater treatment system...
Email from Dad (Feb 12)
Hi again,
Here is a scan of part of the brochure sent to me by Ozzikleen.
I have taken time today to call the Vic Rep to enquire of some factors that impact on your use of the water:
1. Malcolm said the system could be upgraded to another level of water treatment by installing a sand filter initially. Russell, the Vic Manager said this was possible and that back washing it quarterly as part of the EPA required periodic maintenance would be about $25 extra. The cost of maintenance for other things is about $80-85. If you add chlorine it costs more. There are many applications for the water which doesn't require chlorine to be added according to Malcolm so we need to check this out as chlorine costs about $25 extra too. The water is tested and the chlorine concentration required set and is then added automatically by the system for that quarter.
2. I explained that the system will not be commissioned for many years and that Malcolm advised that we could extract the submersible pump, which is contained in a PVC cylinder, and store this in the shed so no maintenance or deterioration was going to happen while this period passed. He agreed with this appraisal.
3. The natural next question was whether rainwater could be stored in the tank during this period before commissioning and pumped out to use on the garden or/wherever. He said the tanks were made from potable water grade PVC so that would not pose a problem.
4. I then asked about the greywater system. Before commissioning a starter kit of bacteria is placed into the tank's 3000 litre treatment section. Water is pumped into a pumping well as the next stage, which is ready for use, but only 300 litres. This is of great concern because I had wanted to pump water from this reserve on an automatic basis into the cistern supply to flush the toilets. That is one of the main functions of the pumping well. When this well is full it is automatically dispersed to the irrigation field, or wherever we choose.
5. So I asked then if I could disperse it to the open stock tank and use it for growing the water lilies. A phase of this would be to aerate the water that has a dual purpose of allowing uptake of oxygen and purification by sunlight. He agreed that this would be entirely okay.
6. I asked if I could store it in a tank for dispersal later, and he said that was fine because of the chlorination process. So you can get set-up to store water for irrigation at a time and to where you like. I asked about using it on vegetable and fruit, and he said this was perfectly alright and permitted. So it could be pumped uphill to the irrigation tank and await use on the garden where-ever you choose and whenever you choose. I would prefer you chose to keep the irrigation tank used for the dam water separate from that acquired from the greywater. I think pumping it to a tank on the other side of the house but uphill of the walled garden would be the best solution, but that is your call. I think where possible you should distribute the water as soon as possible to sites about the property as needed by plants.
Update (April 2009): Unfortunately, we later learned that storing the water for later dispersal may not be possible for us, at least initially. It would be perfectly safe to do so given the treatment to the water, but the local council apparently doesn't allow it yet. It's a bit like when I was a kid they used to ban (seriously!) rainwater tanks in suburbs - vs now they give subsidies to encourage people to install. Apparently some councils are already more flexible on this, so hopefully ours will have changed by the time we move back...
7. I spoke at length to Malcolm about the irrigation system. He said we could setup the system with a manifold which permited by valve management routing water to whereever we wished it. At present we cannot plan to store any of the black water, but that may be possible one day. That is the smaller supply because it involves only water used when flushing the toilet. The showers, washing machine, kitchen wastes, etc goes to the greywater system. A grease trap is usually incorporated in the waste from the kitchen supply. There are several sizes of traps available. This is part of the connection to the house phase of the plumbing and doesn't need be involved in this septic waste system right now.
Will talk more later. I strongly advise you to use OzzieKleen. I am much more impressed with their product range than with Septech, and having Malcolm to maintain it and advise on other plumbing design is going to be great.
Email from Dad (Feb 12)
Hi again,
Here is a scan of part of the brochure sent to me by Ozzikleen.
I have taken time today to call the Vic Rep to enquire of some factors that impact on your use of the water:
1. Malcolm said the system could be upgraded to another level of water treatment by installing a sand filter initially. Russell, the Vic Manager said this was possible and that back washing it quarterly as part of the EPA required periodic maintenance would be about $25 extra. The cost of maintenance for other things is about $80-85. If you add chlorine it costs more. There are many applications for the water which doesn't require chlorine to be added according to Malcolm so we need to check this out as chlorine costs about $25 extra too. The water is tested and the chlorine concentration required set and is then added automatically by the system for that quarter.
2. I explained that the system will not be commissioned for many years and that Malcolm advised that we could extract the submersible pump, which is contained in a PVC cylinder, and store this in the shed so no maintenance or deterioration was going to happen while this period passed. He agreed with this appraisal.
3. The natural next question was whether rainwater could be stored in the tank during this period before commissioning and pumped out to use on the garden or/wherever. He said the tanks were made from potable water grade PVC so that would not pose a problem.
4. I then asked about the greywater system. Before commissioning a starter kit of bacteria is placed into the tank's 3000 litre treatment section. Water is pumped into a pumping well as the next stage, which is ready for use, but only 300 litres. This is of great concern because I had wanted to pump water from this reserve on an automatic basis into the cistern supply to flush the toilets. That is one of the main functions of the pumping well. When this well is full it is automatically dispersed to the irrigation field, or wherever we choose.
5. So I asked then if I could disperse it to the open stock tank and use it for growing the water lilies. A phase of this would be to aerate the water that has a dual purpose of allowing uptake of oxygen and purification by sunlight. He agreed that this would be entirely okay.
6. I asked if I could store it in a tank for dispersal later, and he said that was fine because of the chlorination process. So you can get set-up to store water for irrigation at a time and to where you like. I asked about using it on vegetable and fruit, and he said this was perfectly alright and permitted. So it could be pumped uphill to the irrigation tank and await use on the garden where-ever you choose and whenever you choose. I would prefer you chose to keep the irrigation tank used for the dam water separate from that acquired from the greywater. I think pumping it to a tank on the other side of the house but uphill of the walled garden would be the best solution, but that is your call. I think where possible you should distribute the water as soon as possible to sites about the property as needed by plants.
Update (April 2009): Unfortunately, we later learned that storing the water for later dispersal may not be possible for us, at least initially. It would be perfectly safe to do so given the treatment to the water, but the local council apparently doesn't allow it yet. It's a bit like when I was a kid they used to ban (seriously!) rainwater tanks in suburbs - vs now they give subsidies to encourage people to install. Apparently some councils are already more flexible on this, so hopefully ours will have changed by the time we move back...
7. I spoke at length to Malcolm about the irrigation system. He said we could setup the system with a manifold which permited by valve management routing water to whereever we wished it. At present we cannot plan to store any of the black water, but that may be possible one day. That is the smaller supply because it involves only water used when flushing the toilet. The showers, washing machine, kitchen wastes, etc goes to the greywater system. A grease trap is usually incorporated in the waste from the kitchen supply. There are several sizes of traps available. This is part of the connection to the house phase of the plumbing and doesn't need be involved in this septic waste system right now.
Will talk more later. I strongly advise you to use OzzieKleen. I am much more impressed with their product range than with Septech, and having Malcolm to maintain it and advise on other plumbing design is going to be great.
Thursday, February 12, 2009
Septech out, Ozzikleen in
So, continuing in the saga of the wastewater treatment system. We are now almost certain to be going with an alternative supplier: Ozzikleen
Dad's email from Feb 3rd:
Hi again. I have good news on the septic system. I have heard nothing from Mike at Septech, even after my second phone call and his promise to action his second quote that very afternoon.
So today I called Ozzi-Kleen again. Their sales manager got in touch with a plumber in Castlemaine who is a regular installer of these systems over the last 6 years or more. He phoned me and spoke for quite a long time. I will be meeting him on the block next week. He is very interested in doing the plumbing of the house. He has 3 men working for him. He said he likes to get the owners to install the irrigation system because it is cheaper for them then and they better understand the system. He said he could arrange the delivery of the system to the block. I will give him all things needed to quote the job and discuss plans for development next week when I am there. I hope you don't expect me to chase after Mike for a quote any longer - if quoting is so difficult how might getting the work done and servicing be later. No, I am not disposed to use Septech any longer. It is your call of course, but I have to be frank.
Update (April 2009): After Dave stepped in and started chasing, we did eventually get a quote from Septech - but it turned out to be just the same as the standard one they'd sent us months earlier, without any of the in-between discussion incorporated. A little annoying... Then, when we looked into Ozzikleen a little more, it sounded like their system might be better anyway. Specifically it isn't so sensitive, you wouldn't have to restrict yourself to just special cleaners, and it seemed like it would be less hassle to install. Also, Ozzikleen had a plumber locally (well within 1 hour's drive which counts as local there!) who was interested in the work - and crucially able to meet our timing. So, in the end, Ozzikleen is who we chose.
Dad's email from Feb 3rd:
Hi again. I have good news on the septic system. I have heard nothing from Mike at Septech, even after my second phone call and his promise to action his second quote that very afternoon.
So today I called Ozzi-Kleen again. Their sales manager got in touch with a plumber in Castlemaine who is a regular installer of these systems over the last 6 years or more. He phoned me and spoke for quite a long time. I will be meeting him on the block next week. He is very interested in doing the plumbing of the house. He has 3 men working for him. He said he likes to get the owners to install the irrigation system because it is cheaper for them then and they better understand the system. He said he could arrange the delivery of the system to the block. I will give him all things needed to quote the job and discuss plans for development next week when I am there. I hope you don't expect me to chase after Mike for a quote any longer - if quoting is so difficult how might getting the work done and servicing be later. No, I am not disposed to use Septech any longer. It is your call of course, but I have to be frank.
Update (April 2009): After Dave stepped in and started chasing, we did eventually get a quote from Septech - but it turned out to be just the same as the standard one they'd sent us months earlier, without any of the in-between discussion incorporated. A little annoying... Then, when we looked into Ozzikleen a little more, it sounded like their system might be better anyway. Specifically it isn't so sensitive, you wouldn't have to restrict yourself to just special cleaners, and it seemed like it would be less hassle to install. Also, Ozzikleen had a plumber locally (well within 1 hour's drive which counts as local there!) who was interested in the work - and crucially able to meet our timing. So, in the end, Ozzikleen is who we chose.
Saturday, January 03, 2009
perhaps it won't be Septech after all
Before we can get the building permit for the old house, we need to submit plans for the wastewater treatment system. It is turning out to be less straightforward than we anticipated.
We thought we'd decided on a supplier - Septech - who were the only ones to respond to our original email queries. We had some phone conversations with them and despite the hiccup that the Council wouldn't let us store the water, we were planning to go ahead.
But now, unfortunately things have gone very quiet at their end. We need a new quote from them and input on the layout of the dispersion field, but despite Dad chasing and explaining the urgency there's been no response. So, to hedge our bets, we're now having to look at alternative suppliers.
To fill you in on the gory details...
The last news we'd had was on 28th Oct, when Michael emailed to update us on his phone call to the Council:
"Just a follow up to our previous conversations and emails. I have spoken to John Kelly from the health Department and at this stage “Central Goldfields Shire” will not endorse any Grey water systems to store or reuse grey or black water at the moment. The reason is for not when the systems are operating correctly but for when they are poorly maintained or just faulty it could pose a health threat. The new EPA Guidelines do allow for it to be reused if the council approves, so my suggestion would be to put the one system at the moment with two separate lines going into it one Grey and one Black because I can see a change in council’s attitude in a couple of years, and this would allow for an easier transition to the grey water reuse system".
I replied on 31st Oct:
"Thanks a lot for contacting John Kelly - what bad news! Oh well... I share your opinion that they will probably change their minds in a few years, so the suggestion to put in separate lines for black/grey water to allow for easier updating in future is good.
I'll let Dad get in touch to make plans for next steps, but we should go ahead with the basic system for now at least so we can get the building permit sorted for the existing house repairs. I've made some suggestions to Dad about where the irrigating pipes should go (ie: not on the lemon gums) but rather a bit further down to the orchard (provided it isn't a problem being close to the dam) or alternatively closer up to the house above the driveway (where we will one day have flower beds: and so if you can give me the parameters for what shapes the pipes can be in then I will design the garden bed layout around them)"
Dad also followed up on 6th November:
"Hi again Michael. I have been to Amherst again since getting this email from Lyn and Dave. I took measurements of the area where the wastewater effluence field can go for your calculation and design purposes:
The optimum position is in the area above the driveway (as defined by the row of lemon-scented gums) and the house. I assume you will place the tank in line with the front of the old house, but down the slope just a bit from the level of the commencement of the new house planned. The distance from the tank placement therefore and the road is 45 metres, and the width of the area is also 45 metres. Therefore fitting in a length of 400 metres is quite possible with 10-12 traverses across the slope. The road is 54 metres from the dam. The orchard is 27.5 metres X 37 metres. This is mostly off to the side of the proposed effluence field however. It should be possible to place the entire field so no water will seep into the orchard area.
Lyn and Dave have purchased a B21 Kubota frontend loader/backhoe in order to do terracing of the block. This is essential in order to retain water for garden beds. Therefore our option for installation of the pipes of the field will be a surface pinned pipe with terracing completed to accommodate the system design you propose prior to placing your pipes. It will also be possible for the hole required for your tank to be dug by ourselves if that is any savings to us in your quote for installation. You will need to specify the size of hole needed of course and it's orientation on the block to suit your system.
Could you followup this email with instructions to us as to your system requirement, ie how many traverses of the slope you need for the pipe, so the terraces can be constructed and soil installed appropriately, and appropriate garden plants installed over time. Is it possible I could install your effluence field to your specification, and thus save some money? I really don't mind having you install the pipes, however, but it would mean dovetailing our terracing and soil installation with your piping. Not a problem however either way since you will likely need an inspection by John Kelly before we backfill over with mulch material.
What is most needed now is your application to John Kelly for the septic system the old house will use, which is the same as the new house. (When we apply for the building permit for the new house, I will be getting you to apply again if required.) I cannot proceed further with the building permit for renovating the old house until this is completed.
Thanks again for time spent with John Kelly, and Lyn and Dave. John"
Then, things went quiet... We found out that Michael had been on holiday in 2nd half of November so waited. We finally got a reply in response to question about what the next steps were on 3rd Dec:
"I need to confirm the quotation in writing with you and then if you are happy with that Send the acceptance back and then I will fill out you application and do a sketch for the council and forward it to your father to submit...... Then the council will probably contact me to do a site visit to confirm"
So we waited. And waited. And waited some more but still no quotation has come.
I get that it is Christmas and holiday time. But come on, seriously. How hard is it to do a revised quotation? It's doubly bad given that they know how urgent it is at our end. *sigh*
We thought we'd decided on a supplier - Septech - who were the only ones to respond to our original email queries. We had some phone conversations with them and despite the hiccup that the Council wouldn't let us store the water, we were planning to go ahead.
But now, unfortunately things have gone very quiet at their end. We need a new quote from them and input on the layout of the dispersion field, but despite Dad chasing and explaining the urgency there's been no response. So, to hedge our bets, we're now having to look at alternative suppliers.
To fill you in on the gory details...
The last news we'd had was on 28th Oct, when Michael emailed to update us on his phone call to the Council:
"Just a follow up to our previous conversations and emails. I have spoken to John Kelly from the health Department and at this stage “Central Goldfields Shire” will not endorse any Grey water systems to store or reuse grey or black water at the moment. The reason is for not when the systems are operating correctly but for when they are poorly maintained or just faulty it could pose a health threat. The new EPA Guidelines do allow for it to be reused if the council approves, so my suggestion would be to put the one system at the moment with two separate lines going into it one Grey and one Black because I can see a change in council’s attitude in a couple of years, and this would allow for an easier transition to the grey water reuse system".
I replied on 31st Oct:
"Thanks a lot for contacting John Kelly - what bad news! Oh well... I share your opinion that they will probably change their minds in a few years, so the suggestion to put in separate lines for black/grey water to allow for easier updating in future is good.
I'll let Dad get in touch to make plans for next steps, but we should go ahead with the basic system for now at least so we can get the building permit sorted for the existing house repairs. I've made some suggestions to Dad about where the irrigating pipes should go (ie: not on the lemon gums) but rather a bit further down to the orchard (provided it isn't a problem being close to the dam) or alternatively closer up to the house above the driveway (where we will one day have flower beds: and so if you can give me the parameters for what shapes the pipes can be in then I will design the garden bed layout around them)"
Dad also followed up on 6th November:
"Hi again Michael. I have been to Amherst again since getting this email from Lyn and Dave. I took measurements of the area where the wastewater effluence field can go for your calculation and design purposes:
The optimum position is in the area above the driveway (as defined by the row of lemon-scented gums) and the house. I assume you will place the tank in line with the front of the old house, but down the slope just a bit from the level of the commencement of the new house planned. The distance from the tank placement therefore and the road is 45 metres, and the width of the area is also 45 metres. Therefore fitting in a length of 400 metres is quite possible with 10-12 traverses across the slope. The road is 54 metres from the dam. The orchard is 27.5 metres X 37 metres. This is mostly off to the side of the proposed effluence field however. It should be possible to place the entire field so no water will seep into the orchard area.
Lyn and Dave have purchased a B21 Kubota frontend loader/backhoe in order to do terracing of the block. This is essential in order to retain water for garden beds. Therefore our option for installation of the pipes of the field will be a surface pinned pipe with terracing completed to accommodate the system design you propose prior to placing your pipes. It will also be possible for the hole required for your tank to be dug by ourselves if that is any savings to us in your quote for installation. You will need to specify the size of hole needed of course and it's orientation on the block to suit your system.
Could you followup this email with instructions to us as to your system requirement, ie how many traverses of the slope you need for the pipe, so the terraces can be constructed and soil installed appropriately, and appropriate garden plants installed over time. Is it possible I could install your effluence field to your specification, and thus save some money? I really don't mind having you install the pipes, however, but it would mean dovetailing our terracing and soil installation with your piping. Not a problem however either way since you will likely need an inspection by John Kelly before we backfill over with mulch material.
What is most needed now is your application to John Kelly for the septic system the old house will use, which is the same as the new house. (When we apply for the building permit for the new house, I will be getting you to apply again if required.) I cannot proceed further with the building permit for renovating the old house until this is completed.
Thanks again for time spent with John Kelly, and Lyn and Dave. John"
Then, things went quiet... We found out that Michael had been on holiday in 2nd half of November so waited. We finally got a reply in response to question about what the next steps were on 3rd Dec:
"I need to confirm the quotation in writing with you and then if you are happy with that Send the acceptance back and then I will fill out you application and do a sketch for the council and forward it to your father to submit...... Then the council will probably contact me to do a site visit to confirm"
So we waited. And waited. And waited some more but still no quotation has come.
I get that it is Christmas and holiday time. But come on, seriously. How hard is it to do a revised quotation? It's doubly bad given that they know how urgent it is at our end. *sigh*
Tuesday, November 18, 2008
To terrace or not to terrace?
In parallel with the wastewater treatment decision, Dad is very insistent that we decide right away on the garden layout, and in particular that we put terraces in. I am less sure, not least because I'd never envisaged having terraces nor had it been something we'd discussed.
Much exchange of emails ensued... At one point I had talked myself into terracing, to the extent of having a giant HaHa... but then Dad talked me out of it again. So now we're back to square one, no decision on layout yet made and awaiting input from Michael from Septech on how detailed we need to be in specifying pipe layout.
I can't face summarising it all, so here's the email conversations recorded for posterity. ;-)
On 11th Nov Dad wrote:
I think terracing of the block is essential in order to retain water for garden beds. I believe each terrace can accommodate two rows of appropriate trees, at the high side and the low side. The stepdown of each terrace will give a place for trailing plants and for shrubs. The size of each terrace is dictated by your plans for the area other than as an effluence field. The pipes can be buried beneath the surface if it is more appropriate for the use you intend for the terrace. In fact, you may not want to put in terracing at all. But you need to take time to consider this in the light of needing to direct Michael, and when he proposes his pipes you need to accomodate these adequately. You are the one with the masterplan.
I replied:
In terms of terracing, I don't know yet. There are pros and cons. But at this stage, I don't see that whether we have terraces or whether we have the pipes simply laid on the surface with mulch would make a huge difference to the length of pipes we'd need. I will ask Michael though. For the moment I think we go with whatever layout in that specific area is the simplest for him to quote on, so we can get the plans submitted in order to get the building permit underway. If needed we can then revise the details of piping layout later as they'll remain in the same area so can't see it being a big deal
On 13th Nov Dad replied:
I suspect from your last email that you are not aware that the council health inspector will not permit us to move the field as established by the drainer before commissioning the system without another inspection. That is why I wanted you to consider the size of each of the terraces if terraces were to be used at all. Terraces make the area more efficient for use as a soakage of wastewater area. As the gradient is such that over the distance from the corner post under the master bedroom of the old house to the cornerpost under the kitchen on a diagonal is approximately 1 metre in fall. That translates to about 1m fall in approx 12 m. Since we can curve the terraces to the shape of the hill we can gain a slightly sloping open area with a width of 3m and a step down for each area of about 400mm. The 45m area available would permit 4 such terraces. The field has to be accounted for the minimum of 400m only on the parts where the pipes are going on the level along the length of the terrace. The drop down to the next terrace at either end does not apply to the overall capacity of the system to dispense water.
If you wanted to have only 2 terraces then the stepdown would be approx 1m. That may be more suitable to you. It would mean moving subsoil down to the lower area after scraping off any soil that could be used on the finished terrace. That applies to all terracing of course. The stepdown requires a slope rather than a sheer drop. This takes away from the available width of the area to accommodate the terraces, but a slope is more serviceable in the long run with less maintenance.
As long as you have a clear idea of this information you can make a considered choice about whether to have terraces or not. If you like you can simply distribute the pipes on the existing gradient. You also have the option of having the pipes buried at least 300mm under the ground or lying atop the ground with mulch atop them
I replied:
Yes, I understand we can't move the overall location of the field.. But, if the field is defined as simple a specific area - ie if you imagine we roped out a section of land between the house and the gums at top of driveway, then it may be that provided we stick to keeping the pipes within that specific area, we might have flexibility to change the precise details of pipe arrangement prior to implementation.
It all depends on how detailed Michael has to be in terms of how he describes things. Eg: if he has to describe the location of every single individual pipe and bend, then we wouldn't be able to alter a thing without having another inspection. But if all we need do for the permit is to commit to there being a set length of pipe in total and for it to be arranged over this particular plot of land (but not give details of precisely how the pipes would be arranged within the borders of that plot) then we would still have flexibility to decide the best garden (and thus pipe) layout closer to implementation.
Eg: do the pipes have to be evenly spaced within a given area, or can their arrangement be more finely targeted, so it only goes on those areas that have garden beds and not on the areas that are paths? As an illustration, see:
If we went for a garden layout sort of like this, would we be able to focus the pipes in just the dark green bedding areas? This is what I want to find out from Michael. (nb: this is just one illustration: I would want to liaise with Prue before confirming precise shapes of beds etc, just showing to you so you get the gist of what I am asking).
Of course, it would be possible to still have terracing with this sort of garden although you wouldn't want too many... But, thinking about it more, there is another reason why having at least one terrace would be good - and that is so that we could use it as a Ha-Ha.
In case you don't know what a Ha-Ha is, it is basically an invisible fence. They used them a lot in old country houses here in the UK, as a way to keep sheep and cows out of the formal garden areas without having to build an obvious wall that blocked the view from the house.
I wonder if we could do a form of this encircling at least the bottom parts of the garden which had a HaHa type cliff edge - of a sufficient height to stop sheep/cows/etc. We could use the clay that we have excavated from other areas, supplemented with lovely topsoil that we buy in for the top for planting in - to help build up the height sufficient to give a high enough edge.
This would also solve a problem I have been worried about: how to be able to have a nice garden area without sheep getting into it and having to erect yet another fence. You mentioned if we had 2 terraces the step down would be 1m. So does that mean if we had only one terrace, that the step down at the outside edge would be 2m? This would be big enough to keep out sheep wouldn't it?
What do you think?
Dad replied:
1. A metre fence with a slope to complement it will be adequate. There are not slopes that a sheep or cow will not go up for good tucker, unless we are talking a sheer wall of sleepers or rock.
2. If we have only one terrace it will make a wall about 1.6m to 2m as a rough calculation. This terrace will not be level, most likely, but have a small gradient. Before beginning any excavation I would establish the gradients required to follow by placing markers for the man on the machine, and by frequent checks of gradient points as the excavation continues.
3 .The problem with moving the pipes is that you cannot handle them unless licensed to do so. They are a health hazard as they carry black water to be treated in the ground.
4. However you go about this there is sufficient area to get 400m of pipe in for the dispersal of the water. I would imagine there are guidelines as to how close together the row can be, and this relative to the percolation value of the soil. I am sure they will have it worked out to be certain all water delivered remains under the surface and doesn't seep to the surface because of saturation of the area.
I replied:
Hi Dad,
Re: 1)
We *are* talking about a sheer wall of rock. That is what a Ha-Ha involves.
I just realised I have some photos of a real HaHa that may help explain it better. In fact this is of the oldest HaHa in the world that was installed in the late 1600's and has been keeping out sheep ever since. I saw it with Mum at the Levens Hall garden a few years ago up in Cumbria. This is me standing on the edge of the Levens Hall HaHa with my toes nearly off the edge, taking a photo of the rock retaining wall. See, it's really clever, you can hardly tell there is a wall there even when standing right above it.
And this is the photo I took, looking down. You can see they had pebbles at the bottom and rocks lining the wall side
I like the idea of a HaHa aka an invisible fence from the house side, because I really don't want to have everything looking like it is fenced in. The orchard wall was something that we were forced into and luckily you can't see the wire from the house, but it has spoiled my plans for that part of the garden... kind of hard to stroll through the trees down to the dam when you have to go through giant fencing. But hoping it will be OK in the end because we will grow things on the wall and make it look less like a prison fence encircling them. We had no choice anyway, protecting the trees was the top priority.
Re: 2)
A wall of 1.6 - 2m at it's highest point down near the driveway sounds great - although I want to discuss with Dave too. It would mean that even as we got up the hill towards the house there will still be a reasonable sized drop quite a way around. So it would only be near the house that we had to worry about having a low height fence.
We could have one small part where there were steps and a gate in the wall to allow you to walk up through the garden from the driveway.
Re: 3)
Of course I understand we can't move the pipes once they have been laid. But there is a long long time before a single pipe will go near the place. To spell it out more clearly, this is my understanding of the timing.
Dec 2008: Michael creates application including plan (to whatever level of detail is required)
Jan 2009: Dad gets building permit to start work on the old house
Sometime in 2011 or even 2012: We actually get round laying the pipes.
There is a lot of time between now and when the pipes need to be put on the ground. All I am saying is that why commit now to a detailed layout of exactly where each individual pipe will go, where it will bend, etc if we still have years to go before it will be implemented? The *only* reason to commit so early would be if the council required that level of detail for the permit, but that is for Michael to tell us.
Of course: the one thing I need to check in having just a single big terrace - which can't do until on site and can see the gradients - is whether having such a terrace would mean you couldn't see the dam from the house. I'm hoping not, am hoping that the slope is such that you would still be able to look down and see it, that the only parts that may be hidden are the driveway and part of the orchard...
Dad replied:
I did not say the wall was to be down near the driveway, but I referred to a terrace created by removing soil and subsoil layers to whatever size you wanted within the 45x45 area. The thought I had was that the terrace would ultimately regain the original level of the ground near the trees. I never thought you wanted to dig below the level of the trees to create a trench. Doing this may compromise the runoff prospect from the saturation field. You cannot go closer than the front of the house with any diggings because of the underground pipeline restrictions, so to manage a trench to runoff would have to be arranged in the other direction,across the road and thereby require a bridge of sorts.....I thought you would use the extra soil from the house excavation and from small terraces to build up a roadway between the trees. The idea of a Ha Ha for the wastewater area is going to greatly restrict the area available for pipes. I was talking about a wall or slope at the high side of the wastewater field. The vegetation of this field cannot be fruit trees or vegetables. Nothing that will be consumed. The area you have bending up towards the house is where the septic has to be put. This cannot be too far from the houses nor be too low as a very low gradient for the septic inflow pipes from bathroom and other area is required (apx 40/1 if it hasn't changed since I last laid such pipes). The tank could go under the area for the herb garden in your sketch, but must be not directly under as access needs to be readily available for service. A large terrace may require another percolation test as the test had only 600mm holes into the undisturbed terrain of the area. I think Michael's input is required before too much more detail is added to the area.
Much exchange of emails ensued... At one point I had talked myself into terracing, to the extent of having a giant HaHa... but then Dad talked me out of it again. So now we're back to square one, no decision on layout yet made and awaiting input from Michael from Septech on how detailed we need to be in specifying pipe layout.
I can't face summarising it all, so here's the email conversations recorded for posterity. ;-)
On 11th Nov Dad wrote:
I think terracing of the block is essential in order to retain water for garden beds. I believe each terrace can accommodate two rows of appropriate trees, at the high side and the low side. The stepdown of each terrace will give a place for trailing plants and for shrubs. The size of each terrace is dictated by your plans for the area other than as an effluence field. The pipes can be buried beneath the surface if it is more appropriate for the use you intend for the terrace. In fact, you may not want to put in terracing at all. But you need to take time to consider this in the light of needing to direct Michael, and when he proposes his pipes you need to accomodate these adequately. You are the one with the masterplan.
I replied:
In terms of terracing, I don't know yet. There are pros and cons. But at this stage, I don't see that whether we have terraces or whether we have the pipes simply laid on the surface with mulch would make a huge difference to the length of pipes we'd need. I will ask Michael though. For the moment I think we go with whatever layout in that specific area is the simplest for him to quote on, so we can get the plans submitted in order to get the building permit underway. If needed we can then revise the details of piping layout later as they'll remain in the same area so can't see it being a big deal
On 13th Nov Dad replied:
I suspect from your last email that you are not aware that the council health inspector will not permit us to move the field as established by the drainer before commissioning the system without another inspection. That is why I wanted you to consider the size of each of the terraces if terraces were to be used at all. Terraces make the area more efficient for use as a soakage of wastewater area. As the gradient is such that over the distance from the corner post under the master bedroom of the old house to the cornerpost under the kitchen on a diagonal is approximately 1 metre in fall. That translates to about 1m fall in approx 12 m. Since we can curve the terraces to the shape of the hill we can gain a slightly sloping open area with a width of 3m and a step down for each area of about 400mm. The 45m area available would permit 4 such terraces. The field has to be accounted for the minimum of 400m only on the parts where the pipes are going on the level along the length of the terrace. The drop down to the next terrace at either end does not apply to the overall capacity of the system to dispense water.
If you wanted to have only 2 terraces then the stepdown would be approx 1m. That may be more suitable to you. It would mean moving subsoil down to the lower area after scraping off any soil that could be used on the finished terrace. That applies to all terracing of course. The stepdown requires a slope rather than a sheer drop. This takes away from the available width of the area to accommodate the terraces, but a slope is more serviceable in the long run with less maintenance.
As long as you have a clear idea of this information you can make a considered choice about whether to have terraces or not. If you like you can simply distribute the pipes on the existing gradient. You also have the option of having the pipes buried at least 300mm under the ground or lying atop the ground with mulch atop them
I replied:
Yes, I understand we can't move the overall location of the field.. But, if the field is defined as simple a specific area - ie if you imagine we roped out a section of land between the house and the gums at top of driveway, then it may be that provided we stick to keeping the pipes within that specific area, we might have flexibility to change the precise details of pipe arrangement prior to implementation.
It all depends on how detailed Michael has to be in terms of how he describes things. Eg: if he has to describe the location of every single individual pipe and bend, then we wouldn't be able to alter a thing without having another inspection. But if all we need do for the permit is to commit to there being a set length of pipe in total and for it to be arranged over this particular plot of land (but not give details of precisely how the pipes would be arranged within the borders of that plot) then we would still have flexibility to decide the best garden (and thus pipe) layout closer to implementation.
Eg: do the pipes have to be evenly spaced within a given area, or can their arrangement be more finely targeted, so it only goes on those areas that have garden beds and not on the areas that are paths? As an illustration, see:
If we went for a garden layout sort of like this, would we be able to focus the pipes in just the dark green bedding areas? This is what I want to find out from Michael. (nb: this is just one illustration: I would want to liaise with Prue before confirming precise shapes of beds etc, just showing to you so you get the gist of what I am asking).
Of course, it would be possible to still have terracing with this sort of garden although you wouldn't want too many... But, thinking about it more, there is another reason why having at least one terrace would be good - and that is so that we could use it as a Ha-Ha.
In case you don't know what a Ha-Ha is, it is basically an invisible fence. They used them a lot in old country houses here in the UK, as a way to keep sheep and cows out of the formal garden areas without having to build an obvious wall that blocked the view from the house.
I wonder if we could do a form of this encircling at least the bottom parts of the garden which had a HaHa type cliff edge - of a sufficient height to stop sheep/cows/etc. We could use the clay that we have excavated from other areas, supplemented with lovely topsoil that we buy in for the top for planting in - to help build up the height sufficient to give a high enough edge.
This would also solve a problem I have been worried about: how to be able to have a nice garden area without sheep getting into it and having to erect yet another fence. You mentioned if we had 2 terraces the step down would be 1m. So does that mean if we had only one terrace, that the step down at the outside edge would be 2m? This would be big enough to keep out sheep wouldn't it?
What do you think?
Dad replied:
1. A metre fence with a slope to complement it will be adequate. There are not slopes that a sheep or cow will not go up for good tucker, unless we are talking a sheer wall of sleepers or rock.
2. If we have only one terrace it will make a wall about 1.6m to 2m as a rough calculation. This terrace will not be level, most likely, but have a small gradient. Before beginning any excavation I would establish the gradients required to follow by placing markers for the man on the machine, and by frequent checks of gradient points as the excavation continues.
3 .The problem with moving the pipes is that you cannot handle them unless licensed to do so. They are a health hazard as they carry black water to be treated in the ground.
4. However you go about this there is sufficient area to get 400m of pipe in for the dispersal of the water. I would imagine there are guidelines as to how close together the row can be, and this relative to the percolation value of the soil. I am sure they will have it worked out to be certain all water delivered remains under the surface and doesn't seep to the surface because of saturation of the area.
I replied:
Hi Dad,
Re: 1)
We *are* talking about a sheer wall of rock. That is what a Ha-Ha involves.
I just realised I have some photos of a real HaHa that may help explain it better. In fact this is of the oldest HaHa in the world that was installed in the late 1600's and has been keeping out sheep ever since. I saw it with Mum at the Levens Hall garden a few years ago up in Cumbria. This is me standing on the edge of the Levens Hall HaHa with my toes nearly off the edge, taking a photo of the rock retaining wall. See, it's really clever, you can hardly tell there is a wall there even when standing right above it.
And this is the photo I took, looking down. You can see they had pebbles at the bottom and rocks lining the wall side
I like the idea of a HaHa aka an invisible fence from the house side, because I really don't want to have everything looking like it is fenced in. The orchard wall was something that we were forced into and luckily you can't see the wire from the house, but it has spoiled my plans for that part of the garden... kind of hard to stroll through the trees down to the dam when you have to go through giant fencing. But hoping it will be OK in the end because we will grow things on the wall and make it look less like a prison fence encircling them. We had no choice anyway, protecting the trees was the top priority.
Re: 2)
A wall of 1.6 - 2m at it's highest point down near the driveway sounds great - although I want to discuss with Dave too. It would mean that even as we got up the hill towards the house there will still be a reasonable sized drop quite a way around. So it would only be near the house that we had to worry about having a low height fence.
We could have one small part where there were steps and a gate in the wall to allow you to walk up through the garden from the driveway.
Re: 3)
Of course I understand we can't move the pipes once they have been laid. But there is a long long time before a single pipe will go near the place. To spell it out more clearly, this is my understanding of the timing.
Dec 2008: Michael creates application including plan (to whatever level of detail is required)
Jan 2009: Dad gets building permit to start work on the old house
Sometime in 2011 or even 2012: We actually get round laying the pipes.
There is a lot of time between now and when the pipes need to be put on the ground. All I am saying is that why commit now to a detailed layout of exactly where each individual pipe will go, where it will bend, etc if we still have years to go before it will be implemented? The *only* reason to commit so early would be if the council required that level of detail for the permit, but that is for Michael to tell us.
Of course: the one thing I need to check in having just a single big terrace - which can't do until on site and can see the gradients - is whether having such a terrace would mean you couldn't see the dam from the house. I'm hoping not, am hoping that the slope is such that you would still be able to look down and see it, that the only parts that may be hidden are the driveway and part of the orchard...
Dad replied:
I did not say the wall was to be down near the driveway, but I referred to a terrace created by removing soil and subsoil layers to whatever size you wanted within the 45x45 area. The thought I had was that the terrace would ultimately regain the original level of the ground near the trees. I never thought you wanted to dig below the level of the trees to create a trench. Doing this may compromise the runoff prospect from the saturation field. You cannot go closer than the front of the house with any diggings because of the underground pipeline restrictions, so to manage a trench to runoff would have to be arranged in the other direction,across the road and thereby require a bridge of sorts.....I thought you would use the extra soil from the house excavation and from small terraces to build up a roadway between the trees. The idea of a Ha Ha for the wastewater area is going to greatly restrict the area available for pipes. I was talking about a wall or slope at the high side of the wastewater field. The vegetation of this field cannot be fruit trees or vegetables. Nothing that will be consumed. The area you have bending up towards the house is where the septic has to be put. This cannot be too far from the houses nor be too low as a very low gradient for the septic inflow pipes from bathroom and other area is required (apx 40/1 if it hasn't changed since I last laid such pipes). The tank could go under the area for the herb garden in your sketch, but must be not directly under as access needs to be readily available for service. A large terrace may require another percolation test as the test had only 600mm holes into the undisturbed terrain of the area. I think Michael's input is required before too much more detail is added to the area.
Thursday, October 16, 2008
update on wastewater plans
We're in the throes of trying to sort out the wastewater treatment system.
Even though it will be years yet before we install, we have to get the plans in place now in order to be get the building permit for the old house.
It's a little frustrating given that technology will no doubt advance in 4 years, but given that we've had no luck getting responses from local plumbers in Maryborough, it looks like we'll have to go with getting people up from Melbourne to quote and ultimately do the work.
(The way I figure it, if people aren't interested in helping us out now with a quote/plan even when we offered to pay for their time to do it, then they don't deserve our business in 2-3 years when we come to install).
We're in discussions with Septech, the company who won major brownie points nearly 2 years back by being the only one of 5 to respond acceptably to an email.
Dad has been to see them this week and I've had a phone conversation too, with a nice guy called Michael Pound. Michael needs to call the Amherst health officer (John Kelly) to clarify what the precise requirements are, and make a site visit before he can give a final quote. We'll then need to pay 20% deposit before he'll work on drawing up the plans.
The one hiccup is that in speaking to him it became clear that the system didn't do precisely what I'd understood it did. Although it does recycle everything: greywater and blackwater, treating it so it is safe for irrigation; because of stupid council regulations it isn't allowed to be stored!!
So you currently can't do what I'd envisaged, which was to store it in a special tank that could use to selectively irrigate the garden. It just waters it 24/7 along the 400m of irrigation pipe. And the pipe has all these restrictions on how far away from the house it needs to be etc so I can't even use it to water the courtyard garden which is the area that will need water the most. It's *very* annoying.
It's not a total writeoff though: there are trials underway with some councils in which they are letting people store the treated water to re-use on their property, and Michael said he was confident that by the time we come to live there it will be allowed. Fingers crossed.
Even though it will be years yet before we install, we have to get the plans in place now in order to be get the building permit for the old house.
It's a little frustrating given that technology will no doubt advance in 4 years, but given that we've had no luck getting responses from local plumbers in Maryborough, it looks like we'll have to go with getting people up from Melbourne to quote and ultimately do the work.
(The way I figure it, if people aren't interested in helping us out now with a quote/plan even when we offered to pay for their time to do it, then they don't deserve our business in 2-3 years when we come to install).
We're in discussions with Septech, the company who won major brownie points nearly 2 years back by being the only one of 5 to respond acceptably to an email.
Dad has been to see them this week and I've had a phone conversation too, with a nice guy called Michael Pound. Michael needs to call the Amherst health officer (John Kelly) to clarify what the precise requirements are, and make a site visit before he can give a final quote. We'll then need to pay 20% deposit before he'll work on drawing up the plans.
The one hiccup is that in speaking to him it became clear that the system didn't do precisely what I'd understood it did. Although it does recycle everything: greywater and blackwater, treating it so it is safe for irrigation; because of stupid council regulations it isn't allowed to be stored!!
So you currently can't do what I'd envisaged, which was to store it in a special tank that could use to selectively irrigate the garden. It just waters it 24/7 along the 400m of irrigation pipe. And the pipe has all these restrictions on how far away from the house it needs to be etc so I can't even use it to water the courtyard garden which is the area that will need water the most. It's *very* annoying.
It's not a total writeoff though: there are trials underway with some councils in which they are letting people store the treated water to re-use on their property, and Michael said he was confident that by the time we come to live there it will be allowed. Fingers crossed.
Friday, September 19, 2008
email updates from Dad
Dad has been making progress at Amherst, see updates below. Thank goodness we have his help, it would be impossible otherwise.
September 17th:
Hi, I have just returned from a day to Amherst to meet with the building inspector dealing with the application for a permit. I met with him for about one hour, but had to get there and back the same day. I took a large load up of wrought iron balustrading, pinepoles for the gazebo, and wrought iron posts to use as needed, or to access material for completing other tasks. I got another load of wood to finish my winter. I will work tomorrow on the stumps and stirrups of my back veranda. I had two days together to do work here, but the inspector could only fit in with Mon, Weds, or Friday, so I took time to meet with him. I have to do some additional drawing of details of the Juliet balcony over the bathroom of the old house. The present plan shows that posts to the ground and footing is the support mechanism, but I made it clear to the draftsman that cantilever beams would support this. I will draw an addenda detail asap and send to you and the council. I am too tired now to tell you all he wants, but will send an email tomorrow morning with greater detail.
September 6th:
I returned home from Amherst at 7pm, to a small party for my Father's day. Pete brought his new girlfriend, and Jenny had been there visiting with Vida since 6pm. I had a great conference with the plumber, who used to come as small lad to your paddock to hunt rabbits when it was Fisher's Poultry farm. I will hear back from him soon as to the cost of a 3000 litre septic with effluence drainage fields. He feels it will be best to proceed directly with Septech though because of the cost, probably near $5000 depending on what specifications John Kelly the health officer requires for the length of the effluence field. But he is going to be the plumber of choice I think for the rest of the old house plumbing. I will explain later in greater detail. I am off to church now so must hurry for now.
September 1st:
I will tell you now of my plan to continue to build the hobbithole, but instead to make it an actual chicken house in the short-term. I like chickens, and it will do it no harm in the course of the construction of the house over a long time for it to be used primarily as a chicken house. So I will continue to dream and use bits and pieces that come to hand to create the dream. Dave said when we spoke of it that this was alright, and after consideration I think it proper to proceed when I feel like it after my work here in Ringwood is completed.
August 29th:
I have completed the roof of the shed except for some ridge capping and spouting and drainage. There has not been anymore rain so transfer is not needed to the upper tanks. I still need to contact the plumber and electrician. I will place the drip system into action for the citrus trees in the orchard when things start to dry. There has been showering rain there it seems.
September 17th:
Hi, I have just returned from a day to Amherst to meet with the building inspector dealing with the application for a permit. I met with him for about one hour, but had to get there and back the same day. I took a large load up of wrought iron balustrading, pinepoles for the gazebo, and wrought iron posts to use as needed, or to access material for completing other tasks. I got another load of wood to finish my winter. I will work tomorrow on the stumps and stirrups of my back veranda. I had two days together to do work here, but the inspector could only fit in with Mon, Weds, or Friday, so I took time to meet with him. I have to do some additional drawing of details of the Juliet balcony over the bathroom of the old house. The present plan shows that posts to the ground and footing is the support mechanism, but I made it clear to the draftsman that cantilever beams would support this. I will draw an addenda detail asap and send to you and the council. I am too tired now to tell you all he wants, but will send an email tomorrow morning with greater detail.
September 6th:
I returned home from Amherst at 7pm, to a small party for my Father's day. Pete brought his new girlfriend, and Jenny had been there visiting with Vida since 6pm. I had a great conference with the plumber, who used to come as small lad to your paddock to hunt rabbits when it was Fisher's Poultry farm. I will hear back from him soon as to the cost of a 3000 litre septic with effluence drainage fields. He feels it will be best to proceed directly with Septech though because of the cost, probably near $5000 depending on what specifications John Kelly the health officer requires for the length of the effluence field. But he is going to be the plumber of choice I think for the rest of the old house plumbing. I will explain later in greater detail. I am off to church now so must hurry for now.
September 1st:
I will tell you now of my plan to continue to build the hobbithole, but instead to make it an actual chicken house in the short-term. I like chickens, and it will do it no harm in the course of the construction of the house over a long time for it to be used primarily as a chicken house. So I will continue to dream and use bits and pieces that come to hand to create the dream. Dave said when we spoke of it that this was alright, and after consideration I think it proper to proceed when I feel like it after my work here in Ringwood is completed.
August 29th:
I have completed the roof of the shed except for some ridge capping and spouting and drainage. There has not been anymore rain so transfer is not needed to the upper tanks. I still need to contact the plumber and electrician. I will place the drip system into action for the citrus trees in the orchard when things start to dry. There has been showering rain there it seems.
Sunday, July 27, 2008
revised electrical plan
In response to Mum's comments, Dave revised the electrical plan slightly, basically just adding a few powerpoints. You can see the revised version here, but we'll probably tweak it again when we get closer to installing and know eg: precisely the kitchen layout:
(Click photo to view bigger):
Here's Mum's suggestions in full from her emails on July 22:
I think you could do with a light over kitchen bench underneath the overhead cupboards – light overhead is behind you and will cast shadows otherwise. Or use spotlights to shine in on angle I guess.
Make all powerpoints double and I think you could do with more – kitchen needs more, over bench – blenders, mixers, toaster oven, whatever. You may not use them often as you don’t cook like I do BUT when you need them you will kick yourself if they are not there. Also, I think more are needed almost everywhere – a heater, a fan, whatever might well be needed all over. Allow for computers to plug in, TV in bedroom and so on – and don’t forget TV antenna points and consider smart wiring, radio network the palce – you may as well, it probably won’t cost much extra to do it from scratch but will be a lot more to add it later.
I am not sure about dimmers – they are out of fashion, hard to get, and we are soon to go all energy saver lights which cannot be fitted to dimmers at this stqge. Later this year they get phased out, the conventional sort – and from late next year the normal sort cannot be sold. Already there are more inds and sizes of the energy sver sort on sale – I can put them in most places round my place now and they come in different sizes and bayonet or screw in now too.
Don’t forget where you need the vacuum cleaner to plug in, either. Is one power point outside enough? I’d be thinking at least a double one on each veranda, ie one beside of house if not two per side. Car cleaning with vacuum, maybe a pump, external lights, whatever.
My reply 22nd July:
Hi, thanks a lot for looking at it and for the comments.
Yes, I thought about the kitchen bench lighting but we aren't sure where the cupboards will be. But I should make a note of it for Dad anyway.
Good idea too about the heaters etc, maybe I will just scatter a few more powerpoints around generally. All would be double powerpoints as a matter of course (I didn't realise they came in anything other than double anymore!) But for things like computer area we will have a separate extension board that plugs into a single socket and then has space like for 6 things to plug in. The boards have a circuit breaker to protect in case of power spikes: we use them here and it's just good practice as have heard of people whose equipment has been destroyed by it otherwise.
We'll just be using WiFi to beam things around which is wireless - so shouldn't need anything special done wiring wise: keeping it wireless makes it a lot easier to upgrade.
TV antenna points? I didn't even think of them - I'm so used to just having a satellite dish. But yes will make a note of it in next iteration. The TV location is marked and we can use our Slingbox and the WiFi to beam the signal around the house to any laptop, so as long as it works to the TV in the lounge that's the only point it would need.
Dimmers are a non-negotiable requirement - we've learned from our house here that they make a huge difference to the mood of a room. They are still very fashionable here, even more so nowadays when people want to save energy as when you dim you reduce the power used. Maybe we should buy a bulk load of dimmer switches here to bring back? Starting last year in UK, you can get longlife bulbs that dim. They're not perfect yet (sometimes take a little while to flick on) but they work.
(Click photo to view bigger):
Here's Mum's suggestions in full from her emails on July 22:
I think you could do with a light over kitchen bench underneath the overhead cupboards – light overhead is behind you and will cast shadows otherwise. Or use spotlights to shine in on angle I guess.
Make all powerpoints double and I think you could do with more – kitchen needs more, over bench – blenders, mixers, toaster oven, whatever. You may not use them often as you don’t cook like I do BUT when you need them you will kick yourself if they are not there. Also, I think more are needed almost everywhere – a heater, a fan, whatever might well be needed all over. Allow for computers to plug in, TV in bedroom and so on – and don’t forget TV antenna points and consider smart wiring, radio network the palce – you may as well, it probably won’t cost much extra to do it from scratch but will be a lot more to add it later.
I am not sure about dimmers – they are out of fashion, hard to get, and we are soon to go all energy saver lights which cannot be fitted to dimmers at this stqge. Later this year they get phased out, the conventional sort – and from late next year the normal sort cannot be sold. Already there are more inds and sizes of the energy sver sort on sale – I can put them in most places round my place now and they come in different sizes and bayonet or screw in now too.
Don’t forget where you need the vacuum cleaner to plug in, either. Is one power point outside enough? I’d be thinking at least a double one on each veranda, ie one beside of house if not two per side. Car cleaning with vacuum, maybe a pump, external lights, whatever.
My reply 22nd July:
Hi, thanks a lot for looking at it and for the comments.
Yes, I thought about the kitchen bench lighting but we aren't sure where the cupboards will be. But I should make a note of it for Dad anyway.
Good idea too about the heaters etc, maybe I will just scatter a few more powerpoints around generally. All would be double powerpoints as a matter of course (I didn't realise they came in anything other than double anymore!) But for things like computer area we will have a separate extension board that plugs into a single socket and then has space like for 6 things to plug in. The boards have a circuit breaker to protect in case of power spikes: we use them here and it's just good practice as have heard of people whose equipment has been destroyed by it otherwise.
We'll just be using WiFi to beam things around which is wireless - so shouldn't need anything special done wiring wise: keeping it wireless makes it a lot easier to upgrade.
TV antenna points? I didn't even think of them - I'm so used to just having a satellite dish. But yes will make a note of it in next iteration. The TV location is marked and we can use our Slingbox and the WiFi to beam the signal around the house to any laptop, so as long as it works to the TV in the lounge that's the only point it would need.
Dimmers are a non-negotiable requirement - we've learned from our house here that they make a huge difference to the mood of a room. They are still very fashionable here, even more so nowadays when people want to save energy as when you dim you reduce the power used. Maybe we should buy a bulk load of dimmer switches here to bring back? Starting last year in UK, you can get longlife bulbs that dim. They're not perfect yet (sometimes take a little while to flick on) but they work.
Monday, July 21, 2008
electrical plan for cottage
Dad was adamant that we do a first pass of the Electrical plan for the cottage so that he can start getting quotes from electricians.
Here's my attempts: a plan for location of powerpoints, and a separate one for built-in lighting and switches. (Click to view bigger):
Dad's email 21 July:
In order to get an idea of cost for the whole project I must get a quote from an electrician for the wiring, a quote from the plumber for the plumbing, etc. I am often not on the premises for any length of time so this seems a natural time to book an appointment for a few tradies to visit ... I need to start gathering some momentum to get done those things which involve persons other than myself... Of course I will do outdoor things first, but I will be hoping to get the wiring done and then I can use it from the generator and work anywhere in the house safely. I want only a basic for this week of where you definitely need things, then I want you and Dave to discuss at leisure these things, and if Dave has the chance to walk about and place texta marks on studs in vital places while here I feel it will be well worthwhile. But having the plans there will give you some idea to put marks on it in pencil, and Dave can make notes while here of anything you need to discuss more later. Of course the kitchen is one such. I only need to know approx how many power points and where so wire, switches, fittings for power, etc can be estimated by an electrician. We can start with batten holder fittings for light, and refine later with other special lights for you. Things done after plaster goes up are possible but not so easy so become more costly.
Here's my attempts: a plan for location of powerpoints, and a separate one for built-in lighting and switches. (Click to view bigger):
Dad's email 21 July:
In order to get an idea of cost for the whole project I must get a quote from an electrician for the wiring, a quote from the plumber for the plumbing, etc. I am often not on the premises for any length of time so this seems a natural time to book an appointment for a few tradies to visit ... I need to start gathering some momentum to get done those things which involve persons other than myself... Of course I will do outdoor things first, but I will be hoping to get the wiring done and then I can use it from the generator and work anywhere in the house safely. I want only a basic for this week of where you definitely need things, then I want you and Dave to discuss at leisure these things, and if Dave has the chance to walk about and place texta marks on studs in vital places while here I feel it will be well worthwhile. But having the plans there will give you some idea to put marks on it in pencil, and Dave can make notes while here of anything you need to discuss more later. Of course the kitchen is one such. I only need to know approx how many power points and where so wire, switches, fittings for power, etc can be estimated by an electrician. We can start with batten holder fittings for light, and refine later with other special lights for you. Things done after plaster goes up are possible but not so easy so become more costly.
Wednesday, May 07, 2008
Hot water system
We had to decide on the hot water system type for the new house, so Eric could factor it into the plans. He laid out two basic options, of which we decided to go with Option 1 - not least because we don't have mains gas connection:
Option 1:
"One that I have used successfully in projects like yours is a hybrid of solar, wood fire and electric with a tank concealed in the roof space. The electric element rarely gets used. We used this arrangement at our old bush block where we didn't have mains electricity, so the electric element was never connected. The system works well in summer (solar) and winter (wood fire). There are occasional warm overcast days (about ten per year, from my experience) when the fire is not on and the and clouds prevent solar heating. The seperate concealed tanks don't seem to come with gas boosters, only electric. You need a plumber who is familiar with these systems to make sure it works properly"
Option 2:
"A common arrangement these days is a solar 'pre-heater' with an LPG instant gas heater. The system comprises of a tank and solar panels mounted on the roof. Water circulates through the panels heating the water in the tank when there is sunshine. From the tank, the water passes through a 'instant' LPG heater before going to the tap. If the water is already hot (summer) the LPG heater doesn't come on. If the water is cool or just warm, the LPG heater goes on enough to top it up. These systems are very common and most plumbers could fit them"
Option 1:
"One that I have used successfully in projects like yours is a hybrid of solar, wood fire and electric with a tank concealed in the roof space. The electric element rarely gets used. We used this arrangement at our old bush block where we didn't have mains electricity, so the electric element was never connected. The system works well in summer (solar) and winter (wood fire). There are occasional warm overcast days (about ten per year, from my experience) when the fire is not on and the and clouds prevent solar heating. The seperate concealed tanks don't seem to come with gas boosters, only electric. You need a plumber who is familiar with these systems to make sure it works properly"
Option 2:
"A common arrangement these days is a solar 'pre-heater' with an LPG instant gas heater. The system comprises of a tank and solar panels mounted on the roof. Water circulates through the panels heating the water in the tank when there is sunshine. From the tank, the water passes through a 'instant' LPG heater before going to the tap. If the water is already hot (summer) the LPG heater doesn't come on. If the water is cool or just warm, the LPG heater goes on enough to top it up. These systems are very common and most plumbers could fit them"
Sunday, June 24, 2007
broadband plans for rural Australia
Some good news... they've announced plans to seriously up the availability of fast broadband in rural Australia. Supposedly within 2 years but of course it'll be delayed, but hopefully within 5 by the time we get back. Yay! maybe we won't have to resort to satellite after all!! Of course, fast broadband is only part of the problem, also they have to put decent charging structures in place so you can actually use it to the full potential but hey, baby steps... ;-)
Monday, May 14, 2007
water tanks
We're toying with the idea of getting more water tanks installed sooner rather than later. But first, there's some decisions to make.
The first question is how much capacity we need.
We know we need about 5000 gallons dedicated just for firefighting.
Dave was then thinking we could get away with having an additional 12000 gallons for household use (bearing in mind that almost everything that goes on the garden will be recycled). But a lady I talked to in Rushworth said she got through 2000 gallons in a fortnight for her household of 3 people, which makes me fear 12000 might be cutting it fine.
I'd far rather err on the side of having more rather than less capacity, not least since if we ever have to resort to trucking in water it'd be better if we had more space on-site to store it. But at the same time, water tanks are expensive so don't want to be stupid about it.
We asked Eric what he thought:
Back when we lived in the bush, we had two, 20,000 ltr (5,000 gallon) tanks. All garden irrigation was via the dam water. Dam water also supplied the toilet and the laundry (cold only.) Our rainfall was somewhere in the region of 700-800 mm per. We never actually emptied one tank all the way. I suppose that a single 20,000 ltr tank may have worked, but I wouldn't have wanted to cut it that fine. I'm wondering if the 2000 gallons (8000 ltrs) in a fortnight included gardening. My feeling would be that 2 x 20,000 ltr tanks should be sufficient. Add a third if you want extra security.
Check how much water is required by the CFA. In most areas that I have dealt with, they required 10,000 ltrs. Generally, that can either by a "static" water supply (ie a stand alone tank that just sits there full of water waiting for a fire.) It can also be part of your domestic water tank. Do this by fitting a CFA valve at the bottom of the tank, and the outlet for house use part way up the tank. This means that there would always be a certain amount of water in the tank even if the house runs low. In any case, I would fit a CFA valve to all tanks. It doesn't cost much extra, and if the house catches on fire, most of us would like the CFA to use any water that is available.
Based on this, I'm thinking we'll plan on getting big tanks that can store 40,000 litres = equivalent to two 5000 gallon tanks to begin, but build in space so we can easily add a third. We'll also still have the little baby tanks that can be used to collect and hold water from various sheds and so forth, but I reckon you can probably never have enough water tanks when you live in a dry area. We'll also take the advice about having CFA valves on tanks at a level higher up than the house water, rather than a separate dedicated tank. That way they'll be able to use all the water we have rather than it be restricted to just one tank.
The second question is what colour/style of tank to use.
We've decided to put the tanks up the top, above the house and to go with above-ground tanks rather than under-ground as they seem to be a lot cheaper.
We started off thinking we'd mix them in a variety in different sizes and heritage colours to make it look almost sculptural, but Eric has now changed our minds:
"I use light colours like beige (I know that the work has negative connotations.) Light colours will reflect heat, keeping water cooler. Also, light colours disappear into the background a bit more. I would never use a green tank, especially dark green. They stand out like dogs ..... Metal tanks look the most "authentic." The plain galv metal tanks really suit the australian landscape. The ones used for houses have a PVC lining on the inside. It is a food grade plastic, but some people are concerned about he PVC"
He also gave us links to two suppliers:
Enviro-friendly tanks: These plastic tanks were recommended by a building biologist that I am working with for delivering water with fewer chemical contaminants than other options.
Or for metal tanks, Blue Scope Steel's aquaplate tanks.
My preference is for the latter, in the shade of 'pale eucalypt' steel.
There's a supplier in Ballarat which is probably our closest option:
BlueScope Water - Western Region, BALLARAT, VIC, 3350
ph: 0412 781 095 fax: 03 9830 4897
The first question is how much capacity we need.
We know we need about 5000 gallons dedicated just for firefighting.
Dave was then thinking we could get away with having an additional 12000 gallons for household use (bearing in mind that almost everything that goes on the garden will be recycled). But a lady I talked to in Rushworth said she got through 2000 gallons in a fortnight for her household of 3 people, which makes me fear 12000 might be cutting it fine.
I'd far rather err on the side of having more rather than less capacity, not least since if we ever have to resort to trucking in water it'd be better if we had more space on-site to store it. But at the same time, water tanks are expensive so don't want to be stupid about it.
We asked Eric what he thought:
Back when we lived in the bush, we had two, 20,000 ltr (5,000 gallon) tanks. All garden irrigation was via the dam water. Dam water also supplied the toilet and the laundry (cold only.) Our rainfall was somewhere in the region of 700-800 mm per. We never actually emptied one tank all the way. I suppose that a single 20,000 ltr tank may have worked, but I wouldn't have wanted to cut it that fine. I'm wondering if the 2000 gallons (8000 ltrs) in a fortnight included gardening. My feeling would be that 2 x 20,000 ltr tanks should be sufficient. Add a third if you want extra security.
Check how much water is required by the CFA. In most areas that I have dealt with, they required 10,000 ltrs. Generally, that can either by a "static" water supply (ie a stand alone tank that just sits there full of water waiting for a fire.) It can also be part of your domestic water tank. Do this by fitting a CFA valve at the bottom of the tank, and the outlet for house use part way up the tank. This means that there would always be a certain amount of water in the tank even if the house runs low. In any case, I would fit a CFA valve to all tanks. It doesn't cost much extra, and if the house catches on fire, most of us would like the CFA to use any water that is available.
Based on this, I'm thinking we'll plan on getting big tanks that can store 40,000 litres = equivalent to two 5000 gallon tanks to begin, but build in space so we can easily add a third. We'll also still have the little baby tanks that can be used to collect and hold water from various sheds and so forth, but I reckon you can probably never have enough water tanks when you live in a dry area. We'll also take the advice about having CFA valves on tanks at a level higher up than the house water, rather than a separate dedicated tank. That way they'll be able to use all the water we have rather than it be restricted to just one tank.
The second question is what colour/style of tank to use.
We've decided to put the tanks up the top, above the house and to go with above-ground tanks rather than under-ground as they seem to be a lot cheaper.
We started off thinking we'd mix them in a variety in different sizes and heritage colours to make it look almost sculptural, but Eric has now changed our minds:
"I use light colours like beige (I know that the work has negative connotations.) Light colours will reflect heat, keeping water cooler. Also, light colours disappear into the background a bit more. I would never use a green tank, especially dark green. They stand out like dogs ..... Metal tanks look the most "authentic." The plain galv metal tanks really suit the australian landscape. The ones used for houses have a PVC lining on the inside. It is a food grade plastic, but some people are concerned about he PVC"
He also gave us links to two suppliers:
Enviro-friendly tanks: These plastic tanks were recommended by a building biologist that I am working with for delivering water with fewer chemical contaminants than other options.
Or for metal tanks, Blue Scope Steel's aquaplate tanks.
My preference is for the latter, in the shade of 'pale eucalypt' steel.
There's a supplier in Ballarat which is probably our closest option:
BlueScope Water - Western Region, BALLARAT, VIC, 3350
ph: 0412 781 095 fax: 03 9830 4897
Thursday, December 14, 2006
UPDATE: choosing a sewerage system
It's been a month now since Dave emailed the suppliers, so thought I'd fill you in on what we heard back.
Two of the six suppliers didn't have an email contact, which meant they fell off the list right away. Of the four he emailed, only two replied. So that's helpful in whittling down the shortlist. The way I figure it, if a company can't even be bothered to reply to a sales query, how helpful are they going to be if there's a problem in future!
Biocycle emailed back with contact details for our local sales representative:
Noel Zielke ph: 07 4129 8882, mobile: 0408 787 894
Dave hasn't called him yet but it's helpful to have the details and just for replying they're on the shortlist.
The most thorough response though, by a mile, came from Anthony Knight at Septech. I've pasted his response in full below. OK, some of it was clearly cut & pasted from a brochure, but he took the time to answer the questions via email which as far as I'm concerned wins them major brownie points. As a result, it's Septech who are our current favourites although we still need to do more research.
________________________________________________
EMAIL RESPONSE FROM SEPTECH
Good Morning David,
Thank you for your enquiry. Firstly, yes we can supply to the Maryborough/Avoca area.
The cost of the system does vary with installation and/or irrigation options. To give you an estimate, I will base this on a Turbojet2000 and 200 sq.m of Irrigation Kit. This type of setup would typically be, between, $9,000 - $ 11,000.
EPA/Council Regulations require that this type of system has a service plan. Ours is $280:00 per year (4 Services). The 1st Year of Servicing is included with the purchase of a Turbojet.
With regular servicing, we estimate that the system should last indefinitely. The Warranty on the Tanks is 15 Years.
Why our system? Reed Bed systems take up too much room in a standard installation, ours is sub-surface, with only the access hatches visable, and far less room than a Reed setup. As for our competitors' models…
A 100% Australian owned and operated company, Icon-Septech have set the benchmark and are leading the market in wastewater treatment systems. Icon-Septech's Turbojet Series of products are designed so that you can't see, hear or smell the system working. In fact, all you'll see is crystal clear and odorless water, perfect for irrigating your garden. Plus for your own peace of mind, the output of the Turbojet system far exceeds the Australian Standard's for On-site Domestic Wastewater Treatment Systems ( AS1546.3:2001) which defines the standards for wastewater treatment in Australia and New Zealand.
Turbojet's competitive advantage is its look, or more specifically, its lack of one. You see, with Turbojet, there are no unsightly pumps or boxes and no flashing lights or noise from generators or motors. The Turbojet system is totally submerged underground with just a small, flat cover for access and a stylish LCD control, so you can monitor the operation.
Additionally, the Turbojet system utilizes a unique combination of technology and proven componentry such as:
Two of the six suppliers didn't have an email contact, which meant they fell off the list right away. Of the four he emailed, only two replied. So that's helpful in whittling down the shortlist. The way I figure it, if a company can't even be bothered to reply to a sales query, how helpful are they going to be if there's a problem in future!
Biocycle emailed back with contact details for our local sales representative:
Noel Zielke ph: 07 4129 8882, mobile: 0408 787 894
Dave hasn't called him yet but it's helpful to have the details and just for replying they're on the shortlist.
The most thorough response though, by a mile, came from Anthony Knight at Septech. I've pasted his response in full below. OK, some of it was clearly cut & pasted from a brochure, but he took the time to answer the questions via email which as far as I'm concerned wins them major brownie points. As a result, it's Septech who are our current favourites although we still need to do more research.
________________________________________________
EMAIL RESPONSE FROM SEPTECH
Good Morning David,
Thank you for your enquiry. Firstly, yes we can supply to the Maryborough/Avoca area.
The cost of the system does vary with installation and/or irrigation options. To give you an estimate, I will base this on a Turbojet2000 and 200 sq.m of Irrigation Kit. This type of setup would typically be, between, $9,000 - $ 11,000.
EPA/Council Regulations require that this type of system has a service plan. Ours is $280:00 per year (4 Services). The 1st Year of Servicing is included with the purchase of a Turbojet.
With regular servicing, we estimate that the system should last indefinitely. The Warranty on the Tanks is 15 Years.
Why our system? Reed Bed systems take up too much room in a standard installation, ours is sub-surface, with only the access hatches visable, and far less room than a Reed setup. As for our competitors' models…
A 100% Australian owned and operated company, Icon-Septech have set the benchmark and are leading the market in wastewater treatment systems. Icon-Septech's Turbojet Series of products are designed so that you can't see, hear or smell the system working. In fact, all you'll see is crystal clear and odorless water, perfect for irrigating your garden. Plus for your own peace of mind, the output of the Turbojet system far exceeds the Australian Standard's for On-site Domestic Wastewater Treatment Systems ( AS1546.3:2001) which defines the standards for wastewater treatment in Australia and New Zealand.
Turbojet's competitive advantage is its look, or more specifically, its lack of one. You see, with Turbojet, there are no unsightly pumps or boxes and no flashing lights or noise from generators or motors. The Turbojet system is totally submerged underground with just a small, flat cover for access and a stylish LCD control, so you can monitor the operation.
Additionally, the Turbojet system utilizes a unique combination of technology and proven componentry such as:
- Aerated Wastewater Treatment Processes – a naturally occurring biological process that has been harnessed to produce crystal clear water that doesn't smell or pose a risk on human contact.
- Microprocessor System Control – in-built smart technology for enhanced performance, maximum reliability and minimum human intervention.
- Advanced Hydraulic Design – ensuring the highest efficiency and most consistent performance of any wastewater treatment system on the market.
- Strong Pre-cast Concrete – designed for strength, durability and maximum lifespan, in even the toughest soil conditions.
- Quality Componentry – to minimize maintenance issues and provide added value to our customers.
Years of research, development and continual improvement, along with the installation of over 20,000 units across Australia, has shown that the Turbojet System is perfect for both domestic and commercial applications. And with system sizes ranging from 2,000 litres of wastewater per day up to 100,000 litres per day.
With 10 Service Vans on the road in Melbourne alone, and over 30 years experience in this field, our service department provides solutions that fit the customer's needs. We also have Service Vans dispatched from Numurkah. (Relevant to your area)
Conclusion Superior Technology and results, Solid Service background and deployment, Customer service and satisfaction.
We've provided a standard quote in the attached file, but there are variables to be considered. Ie: Council Permit/Plans, The amount of Irrigation required for the premises. We would also require to assess the site physically to allow for excavation/installation. We would like to invite you to view our Website for further information and details – http://www.septech.com.au/
Saturday, November 18, 2006
choosing a sewerage system
Even though it's a few years off yet before we install it, we need to decide now how the sewerage will be treated, so as to be able to show it on the planning permit application that Dad needs before he can do any proper work at the old house.
To have a shot of having a nice garden, we need to recycle as much water as possible. Most people only recycle grey water, but that means wasting all the sewerage. Given we have to go off the grid anyway (as there's no mains sewerage in our area), we've decided we'd like to get a complete grey & black water treatment and recycling system.
Dave looked at using reed beds but the eco-warrior syle of treatments looked fairly difficult to look after, so he's now leaning towards buying a readymade system. These are essentially like building a 'private' sewerage system that enables the water used to be recycled, at the minimum, to a garden, at best, to produce potable water.
Planning regulations regarding these systems are pretty strict (e.g.they need to be inspected 4 times per year minimum) and not all the advertised 'solutions' are really a complete recycling system when you delve into them. Here's the ones we found online via the EPA's website which we thought might be suitable:
Aquanova http://www.aquanova.com.au/
info@aquanova.com.au
Ecosse Pty LtdBallarat Vic 3350
Tel. 03 5331 4677
Ozzikleen http://www.ozzikleen.com/
North Central septics (echuca?)
tel: 03 5480 1387
mob: 0419 893 271
Taylex http://www.taylex.com.au/
Distributor for central goldfields:
R & F Building Industries
Frank Ortisi ph: (03) 9336 4832
mob: 0419 896 957 Frank, 0407 829 604 Rob
Septech http://www.septech.com.au/
dale@septech.com.au
tel: 1300 557 143
Envirosep http://www.envirosep.com.au/
envirosepsewage@bigpond.com
Tel: (03) 9761 9720
Biocycle http://www.biocyclejowagroup.com.au/
Eaglehawk VIC 3556Tel: (03) 5446 9004
sales@biocyclejowagroup.com.au
Dave emailed the ones who'd given email addresses and asked:
To have a shot of having a nice garden, we need to recycle as much water as possible. Most people only recycle grey water, but that means wasting all the sewerage. Given we have to go off the grid anyway (as there's no mains sewerage in our area), we've decided we'd like to get a complete grey & black water treatment and recycling system.
Dave looked at using reed beds but the eco-warrior syle of treatments looked fairly difficult to look after, so he's now leaning towards buying a readymade system. These are essentially like building a 'private' sewerage system that enables the water used to be recycled, at the minimum, to a garden, at best, to produce potable water.
Planning regulations regarding these systems are pretty strict (e.g.they need to be inspected 4 times per year minimum) and not all the advertised 'solutions' are really a complete recycling system when you delve into them. Here's the ones we found online via the EPA's website which we thought might be suitable:
Aquanova http://www.aquanova.com.au/
info@aquanova.com.au
Ecosse Pty LtdBallarat Vic 3350
Tel. 03 5331 4677
Ozzikleen http://www.ozzikleen.com/
North Central septics (echuca?)
tel: 03 5480 1387
mob: 0419 893 271
Taylex http://www.taylex.com.au/
Distributor for central goldfields:
R & F Building Industries
Frank Ortisi ph: (03) 9336 4832
mob: 0419 896 957 Frank, 0407 829 604 Rob
Septech http://www.septech.com.au/
dale@septech.com.au
tel: 1300 557 143
Envirosep http://www.envirosep.com.au/
envirosepsewage@bigpond.com
Tel: (03) 9761 9720
Biocycle http://www.biocyclejowagroup.com.au/
Eaglehawk VIC 3556Tel: (03) 5446 9004
sales@biocyclejowagroup.com.au
Dave emailed the ones who'd given email addresses and asked:
- Do you supply to the Maryborough/Avoca region?
- What is the standard cost of purchase and installation? (I know these vary with site, but a ball park figure or range would suffice)
- What are the typical maintenance requirements & costs?
- How long does the system last? (I.e. will it need to be replaced in 10 years? 15 years?
- Why is this system better than other approaches, be they reed beds or competitor systems?
I'll post an update with their responses. Update is here.
Friday, December 02, 2005
plumbing and septic saga (part 1)
As part of the submission to get planning & building permits for the old house, we need to include information about the kind of septic system we will be using and water supply arrangements.
The general consensus is that it makes most sense to plan for systems to support both the old & new house. Even though it will cost us more in the short term, it'll save money in the long run.
For water supply, we're planning to put in some big water tanks up on the hill to enable us to get sufficient pressure from gravity feeding. They'll be filled by collecting water from the roof of buildings into the small storage tanks (the ones we've already bought several of) and pumping up.
We haven't decided on precisely which septic system to go for yet as it will depend on pricing, but provided it is suitable for our soil and not outrageously more expensive I'm strongly in favour of an aerated-type system rather than the traditional septic tank. This way, we'll get to recycle more of the water.
This was all too boring to blog as it happened, but I wanted to keep a record of it. So, this is a compilation of all the plumbing and septic related discussion that happened in November:
From Dad's email (Nov 11th):
"We have to have a plumber submit a plan for septic system. I
managed to get a Maryborough plumber to see the place while I was
up there. There was a list provided by the council surveyor of plumbers
who are able to do the work in the area, and I called 6 before I got
onto the chap who was willing to come see the place and discuss with me
the placement of the required service. The plumber must submit the
plans for the septic before a permit to build can be approved. Also a
plumber must do all the plumbing work.
I discussed placement of the header tank for the water supply to obtain
pressure to service the system. We will be placing the tank in the
passage above ceiling in the roof space. That position will afford
adequate pressure for hot water to the laundry and ensuite. It will
be less obvious than on the roof of a veranda. It will be well
protected against water damage should a leak occur. The old tank
will be tested and if it is still good and can be used we will place
it there. Otherwise we must get another. The plumber mentioned
also that we need to have a tank higher up the hill or on a tank
stand that will give adequate water pressure for the house.
There is a minimum supply of water required for the permit to be
granted. We require 20000 litres ready to supply for fire fighting,
and a minimum of 5000 litres of potable. We have when full 13,638
litres as they sit now, but we need greater pressure for the house
and future house.
I propose we place a 5000 gal, that is 22,730 litre, tall profile
tank as far up the top of the hill as possible. That is just where
the peak of the roadway to the hobbithouse passes by the fenceline.
Since we must not build on the fenceline I propose we bring in to
the inside of the roadway and plant more trees or such to obscure
it. The most efficient size tank that can be bought is the 5000
gal for cost/capacity/placement. I will obtain a price for you
before doing anything. That way we have to pump the water up to
the top tank periodically. The new house should be served thus
for the firefighting capacity with this tank so placed. I prefer
to not be relying on electricity to fight a fire. The dam is too
distant for the firefightting, except as a supplement supply.
We could meet minimum firefighting needs with the pump we have
if the dam were closer to the house. But precious moments are
lost while setting up a system, and the gravity system is
always at the ready."
Nov 12... extracts from my reply:
"I was a little confused about where you were talking about
putting the giant 5000gln tank... you talked about a roadway to
the hobbit house but there isn't one (or there isn't meant to
be one)... But then I realised you must be talking about the
dirt track that runs through the forest along the fenceline at
the back of our place? I'm still not entirely sure when you
meant exactly but where we'd been thinking the giant tank would
go is behind the old/new house, up the hill as far back as it
can go near the fenceline... but NOT crossing over to the other
hill where the olives are planted & where the gum trees have
started to come in from the forest & where you were thinking of
building your cottage initially. We want to keep all that area
looking natural as we have plans for it as part of the garden".
Nov 12... extracts from Dad followup mail:
"Sewage can wait a bit I think, but still need to hear from
plumber after his talks with the health and sanitation person
about whether we ought to provide for the new house when doing
the system now. That will be a bigger system of course, but
may be cheaper than doing two systems. But it may be better
to have two systems. If costs are right, will go with the system
for new house as that will not be emptying towards the dam. I
think the place for the septic is in the courtyard, if access
by truck is possible into this inner sanctum. I haven't an
idea how large this will be and where the plantings will be,
and so maybe having the sewage elsewhere, say to the back of
the house, is the best plan....
I read of your thoughts of having the large tank behind the house.
If you do that you must go to the concept of using a pressure pump
system rather than a gravity fed system for your water supply. This
way supposes a consistent access to electricity, and so supposes
going on with the other power supply options. I have a suggestion:
Place a 5000 gal tank up on the highest place we can get it. Plant
things to hide it. If when all things are in place for the new
house and new power supply, simply move it somewhere else. A
gravity system is really the only practical system at present.
The woodstove has to be a gravity system to work properly".
On Nov 13 I replied:
"We don't mean to put the tank behind the house close to it,
but instead far up, way near the back fence. This is still going
to be quite high. We don't want it to be on the hill near the
olive trees. If at the fenceline behind the house still isn't
high enough for gravity feed, can't we put it on a tank stand?
For the big tank I would rather put it in it's ultimate place
rather than somewhere that we'll want to move it from. Because
what will end up happening is that it'll be too much hassle to
move so I'll be stuck with it.
In terms of the sewage treatment approach & position, I want to
consult Eric about that as well as Prue. It can't go in the
courtyard area because that will be all dug out to replace the
soil for planting etc. It also shouldn't go next to the old
house in the part that will be next to the kitchen for the new
house, because the plan is for that to be a herb garden area.
Probably it could go out the front of the old house (not sure
how close that is to the gas line though) or down the slope to
the side a bit further towards the dam... but if you can wait a
little while before deciding precisely where it will be then I
can doublecheck with Prue. But first, I want to check with Eric
about the kind of sewage treatment he suggests".
I then got in touch with Eric in case he had any other suggestions about placement of the tanks and choice of septic system type. Here are extracts from his reply...(Nov 14):
"The planning permit will often contain a condition about water
supply for fire fighting. The dam may be enough. In any case, I
always like to put CFA outlets (to connect to fire hoses) on all
water tanks just in case. They add a little cost to a tank (about
$100) but it's a good idea. 5000 gallon tanks aren't that big.
About 4-4.5m in diameter. I'd probably suggest a couple of them.
You will have plenty of roof area to catch water. We used to have
two 5000 gallon tanks plus the dam for some items and never had
any problems. Larger, site built tanks are another option, but
they require a larger flat spot. I'm not sure about the relative cost.
The septic system will need a separate permit where the type of
system will be nominated. Standard septic systems are the cheapest.
There are other options as well which I described in the Design
Brief. Approved systems are shown on the EPA website.
The shire may also require a Land Capability Assessment which is
a report analysing the site, and recommending a system design. If
you need one, the same person can often do a soil test for the
building at the same time. I often use Provincial Soil Services
in Ballarat for that kind of thing"
We looked at the site Eric recommended and freaked out at how many options there were. So then Dave spoke to Eric to get more clarification. This is from a Nov 17 email written to update Dad about Eric's comments, as relayed to me by Dave:
"Eric too thinks it will probably make the most sense to plan
for the one big septic system now to suit the needs of the new house
as well as the old house. This is particularly the case if we want
to go with an alternative to the standard septic system which is what
we are strongly leaning towards. The two broad approaches are either
to shove it all in a tank, or something (that the name escapes me but
it's something to do with aeration) where you have an area that it
goes to and is treated underground naturally... there are lots of
different variants on second type as it's still relatively new-ish.
At the website he lists above there's a link to see all the EPA
approved systems.
The reason we are interested in the second alternative is that they
are much better in terms of recycling water and we need all the water
we can get, frankly, for the garden. They are a bit more expensive
but he did a project recently where he was surprised how little
extra cost it was... basically, it cost only $1000 more to get the
alternative system than a traditional septic tank. $1000 is not a
lot to pay for extra water over the course of years. Our situation
might be different but I would like to consider an alternative
approach not just assume we go with the standard septic tank of old.
For instance, these are some pictures of lovely garden beds looking
all lush & well watered even though the surrounding areas are very
dry. This is all due to the subsurface irrigation from the effluent
& it improves the soil too. You can't grow food on it but it'd be
great for lawn or a 'bog garden' or whatever.
(nb: both pictures come from the pdf "guidelines for aerated onsite wastewater treatment available here)
Have you heard of these systems before? Do you think the plumber
in Maryborough knows about them? I'd assume he must as they're not
brand new but I don't really know how it works... perhaps for some
you have to work directly with the system manufacturer to get one of
their approved people to install it. I don't want to create hassle
for you but as part of the purpose is to have a lovely garden there,
this seems like a very good option to explore & I'm strongly in
favour of anything that is better for the environment. "
On Nov 17th Dad replied, with regards to the question of the water tank placement:
"We can overcome this problem by placing a platform over the
5000gal tank to support a 300 gallon tank like I put at Dawn's place.
The large tank will add to the stability in the high winds of a tower
high enough to give pressure to the secondfloor of the new structure.
For the old house, we can get by with putting the 5000 gal there and
connecting it for the firefighting requirement, as it is sufficiently
high for a singlestorey building, even with the tank of the hotwater
service in the roofspace. So if you are planning to not have any
visible tanks on the hill, so be it. You could place a low profile
tank "over" the hill for a short way and still achieve a substantial
elevation advantage for water above the new house, yet not have a
tower to look at".
... and then my reply, agreeing..
"That sounds like a good arrangement. I can imagine ultimately
perhaps using the platform as a bit of a lookout... and maybe if we
extended it out in front to create a sort of verandah effect underneath
the 5000gal tank it would be useful as a makeshift barn. Anyway, we
don't need to decide on any of that now, the beauty of the plan is
that we put just the 5000gal one there for now as that on it's own is
enough for the old house".
The general consensus is that it makes most sense to plan for systems to support both the old & new house. Even though it will cost us more in the short term, it'll save money in the long run.
For water supply, we're planning to put in some big water tanks up on the hill to enable us to get sufficient pressure from gravity feeding. They'll be filled by collecting water from the roof of buildings into the small storage tanks (the ones we've already bought several of) and pumping up.
We haven't decided on precisely which septic system to go for yet as it will depend on pricing, but provided it is suitable for our soil and not outrageously more expensive I'm strongly in favour of an aerated-type system rather than the traditional septic tank. This way, we'll get to recycle more of the water.
This was all too boring to blog as it happened, but I wanted to keep a record of it. So, this is a compilation of all the plumbing and septic related discussion that happened in November:
From Dad's email (Nov 11th):
"We have to have a plumber submit a plan for septic system. I
managed to get a Maryborough plumber to see the place while I was
up there. There was a list provided by the council surveyor of plumbers
who are able to do the work in the area, and I called 6 before I got
onto the chap who was willing to come see the place and discuss with me
the placement of the required service. The plumber must submit the
plans for the septic before a permit to build can be approved. Also a
plumber must do all the plumbing work.
I discussed placement of the header tank for the water supply to obtain
pressure to service the system. We will be placing the tank in the
passage above ceiling in the roof space. That position will afford
adequate pressure for hot water to the laundry and ensuite. It will
be less obvious than on the roof of a veranda. It will be well
protected against water damage should a leak occur. The old tank
will be tested and if it is still good and can be used we will place
it there. Otherwise we must get another. The plumber mentioned
also that we need to have a tank higher up the hill or on a tank
stand that will give adequate water pressure for the house.
There is a minimum supply of water required for the permit to be
granted. We require 20000 litres ready to supply for fire fighting,
and a minimum of 5000 litres of potable. We have when full 13,638
litres as they sit now, but we need greater pressure for the house
and future house.
I propose we place a 5000 gal, that is 22,730 litre, tall profile
tank as far up the top of the hill as possible. That is just where
the peak of the roadway to the hobbithouse passes by the fenceline.
Since we must not build on the fenceline I propose we bring in to
the inside of the roadway and plant more trees or such to obscure
it. The most efficient size tank that can be bought is the 5000
gal for cost/capacity/placement. I will obtain a price for you
before doing anything. That way we have to pump the water up to
the top tank periodically. The new house should be served thus
for the firefighting capacity with this tank so placed. I prefer
to not be relying on electricity to fight a fire. The dam is too
distant for the firefightting, except as a supplement supply.
We could meet minimum firefighting needs with the pump we have
if the dam were closer to the house. But precious moments are
lost while setting up a system, and the gravity system is
always at the ready."
Nov 12... extracts from my reply:
"I was a little confused about where you were talking about
putting the giant 5000gln tank... you talked about a roadway to
the hobbit house but there isn't one (or there isn't meant to
be one)... But then I realised you must be talking about the
dirt track that runs through the forest along the fenceline at
the back of our place? I'm still not entirely sure when you
meant exactly but where we'd been thinking the giant tank would
go is behind the old/new house, up the hill as far back as it
can go near the fenceline... but NOT crossing over to the other
hill where the olives are planted & where the gum trees have
started to come in from the forest & where you were thinking of
building your cottage initially. We want to keep all that area
looking natural as we have plans for it as part of the garden".
Nov 12... extracts from Dad followup mail:
"Sewage can wait a bit I think, but still need to hear from
plumber after his talks with the health and sanitation person
about whether we ought to provide for the new house when doing
the system now. That will be a bigger system of course, but
may be cheaper than doing two systems. But it may be better
to have two systems. If costs are right, will go with the system
for new house as that will not be emptying towards the dam. I
think the place for the septic is in the courtyard, if access
by truck is possible into this inner sanctum. I haven't an
idea how large this will be and where the plantings will be,
and so maybe having the sewage elsewhere, say to the back of
the house, is the best plan....
I read of your thoughts of having the large tank behind the house.
If you do that you must go to the concept of using a pressure pump
system rather than a gravity fed system for your water supply. This
way supposes a consistent access to electricity, and so supposes
going on with the other power supply options. I have a suggestion:
Place a 5000 gal tank up on the highest place we can get it. Plant
things to hide it. If when all things are in place for the new
house and new power supply, simply move it somewhere else. A
gravity system is really the only practical system at present.
The woodstove has to be a gravity system to work properly".
On Nov 13 I replied:
"We don't mean to put the tank behind the house close to it,
but instead far up, way near the back fence. This is still going
to be quite high. We don't want it to be on the hill near the
olive trees. If at the fenceline behind the house still isn't
high enough for gravity feed, can't we put it on a tank stand?
For the big tank I would rather put it in it's ultimate place
rather than somewhere that we'll want to move it from. Because
what will end up happening is that it'll be too much hassle to
move so I'll be stuck with it.
In terms of the sewage treatment approach & position, I want to
consult Eric about that as well as Prue. It can't go in the
courtyard area because that will be all dug out to replace the
soil for planting etc. It also shouldn't go next to the old
house in the part that will be next to the kitchen for the new
house, because the plan is for that to be a herb garden area.
Probably it could go out the front of the old house (not sure
how close that is to the gas line though) or down the slope to
the side a bit further towards the dam... but if you can wait a
little while before deciding precisely where it will be then I
can doublecheck with Prue. But first, I want to check with Eric
about the kind of sewage treatment he suggests".
I then got in touch with Eric in case he had any other suggestions about placement of the tanks and choice of septic system type. Here are extracts from his reply...(Nov 14):
"The planning permit will often contain a condition about water
supply for fire fighting. The dam may be enough. In any case, I
always like to put CFA outlets (to connect to fire hoses) on all
water tanks just in case. They add a little cost to a tank (about
$100) but it's a good idea. 5000 gallon tanks aren't that big.
About 4-4.5m in diameter. I'd probably suggest a couple of them.
You will have plenty of roof area to catch water. We used to have
two 5000 gallon tanks plus the dam for some items and never had
any problems. Larger, site built tanks are another option, but
they require a larger flat spot. I'm not sure about the relative cost.
The septic system will need a separate permit where the type of
system will be nominated. Standard septic systems are the cheapest.
There are other options as well which I described in the Design
Brief. Approved systems are shown on the EPA website.
The shire may also require a Land Capability Assessment which is
a report analysing the site, and recommending a system design. If
you need one, the same person can often do a soil test for the
building at the same time. I often use Provincial Soil Services
in Ballarat for that kind of thing"
We looked at the site Eric recommended and freaked out at how many options there were. So then Dave spoke to Eric to get more clarification. This is from a Nov 17 email written to update Dad about Eric's comments, as relayed to me by Dave:
"Eric too thinks it will probably make the most sense to plan
for the one big septic system now to suit the needs of the new house
as well as the old house. This is particularly the case if we want
to go with an alternative to the standard septic system which is what
we are strongly leaning towards. The two broad approaches are either
to shove it all in a tank, or something (that the name escapes me but
it's something to do with aeration) where you have an area that it
goes to and is treated underground naturally... there are lots of
different variants on second type as it's still relatively new-ish.
At the website he lists above there's a link to see all the EPA
approved systems.
The reason we are interested in the second alternative is that they
are much better in terms of recycling water and we need all the water
we can get, frankly, for the garden. They are a bit more expensive
but he did a project recently where he was surprised how little
extra cost it was... basically, it cost only $1000 more to get the
alternative system than a traditional septic tank. $1000 is not a
lot to pay for extra water over the course of years. Our situation
might be different but I would like to consider an alternative
approach not just assume we go with the standard septic tank of old.
For instance, these are some pictures of lovely garden beds looking
all lush & well watered even though the surrounding areas are very
dry. This is all due to the subsurface irrigation from the effluent
& it improves the soil too. You can't grow food on it but it'd be
great for lawn or a 'bog garden' or whatever.
(nb: both pictures come from the pdf "guidelines for aerated onsite wastewater treatment available here)Have you heard of these systems before? Do you think the plumber
in Maryborough knows about them? I'd assume he must as they're not
brand new but I don't really know how it works... perhaps for some
you have to work directly with the system manufacturer to get one of
their approved people to install it. I don't want to create hassle
for you but as part of the purpose is to have a lovely garden there,
this seems like a very good option to explore & I'm strongly in
favour of anything that is better for the environment. "
On Nov 17th Dad replied, with regards to the question of the water tank placement:
"We can overcome this problem by placing a platform over the
5000gal tank to support a 300 gallon tank like I put at Dawn's place.
The large tank will add to the stability in the high winds of a tower
high enough to give pressure to the secondfloor of the new structure.
For the old house, we can get by with putting the 5000 gal there and
connecting it for the firefighting requirement, as it is sufficiently
high for a singlestorey building, even with the tank of the hotwater
service in the roofspace. So if you are planning to not have any
visible tanks on the hill, so be it. You could place a low profile
tank "over" the hill for a short way and still achieve a substantial
elevation advantage for water above the new house, yet not have a
tower to look at".
... and then my reply, agreeing..
"That sounds like a good arrangement. I can imagine ultimately
perhaps using the platform as a bit of a lookout... and maybe if we
extended it out in front to create a sort of verandah effect underneath
the 5000gal tank it would be useful as a makeshift barn. Anyway, we
don't need to decide on any of that now, the beauty of the plan is
that we put just the 5000gal one there for now as that on it's own is
enough for the old house".
Saturday, September 17, 2005
our outdoor 'dunny'
Here are a couple of photos Dad sent recently of a particularly Australian item - the outside 'dunny'. I know other countries had outside toilets, but so far as I'm aware, only in Australia does it have this colloquial name.
Dad made it out of various old materials he had lying around, following instructions in the classic John Seymour book about self-sufficiency. It is a composting toilet and remarkably, it does not smell at all. Of course, it is extremely well ventilated, having half the door with only wire-screen (no glass)! Here it is, charmingly perched up on the hill a short wander from the house...
In case you're wondering, the tanks you see in the corner are part of a series that Dad put in to store water caught by the old house roof... Even though it was more expensive, we deliberately bought three smaller tanks rather than one big one so we can move them around in future. Not only are they more manouvreable, it lets us spread them around the various shed roofs once we've got the huge mammoth underground tank for the house.
This is the glorious view of paddocks outside. It has one of the nicest views of any toilet I've seen.
Originally, Dad built it without any door as he figured there'd be no-one there to see, until the day he was sitting on the loo and saw Tex go riding past in the next door paddock!
Dad made it out of various old materials he had lying around, following instructions in the classic John Seymour book about self-sufficiency. It is a composting toilet and remarkably, it does not smell at all. Of course, it is extremely well ventilated, having half the door with only wire-screen (no glass)! Here it is, charmingly perched up on the hill a short wander from the house...
In case you're wondering, the tanks you see in the corner are part of a series that Dad put in to store water caught by the old house roof... Even though it was more expensive, we deliberately bought three smaller tanks rather than one big one so we can move them around in future. Not only are they more manouvreable, it lets us spread them around the various shed roofs once we've got the huge mammoth underground tank for the house.
This is the glorious view of paddocks outside. It has one of the nicest views of any toilet I've seen.
Originally, Dad built it without any door as he figured there'd be no-one there to see, until the day he was sitting on the loo and saw Tex go riding past in the next door paddock!
Tuesday, February 08, 2005
update on house planning
I haven't posted for ages, mainly because work has been so busy. But, we're at least one step forward on the house planning. Based on the mega brief I wrote back in December, Eric prepared a summarised version which was his own interpretation. Last week we spoke on the phone for about 3 hours (2 separate calls late at night!). Dave and I gave him our feedback and answered questions.... mostly it was all OK but there were a few things that we were worried had been misinterpreted or been given too much emphasis. Eric is now incorporating that into a revised version... and after that he starts drawing! Hopefully that means that in a month or two we'll have the first set of drawing ideas to look at, although there's no rush.
One of the most important things we discussed was the utilities. Here are Eric's comments from an email:
"Two things jumped out as issues to consider early on. One is the idea of
using solar power instead of mains. (We lived for five years out in the
bush with solar power.) Some of the things on the wish list look a bit
ambitious with solar power system unless it is a very big one. Big loads
like air conditioning and dryers are difficult, and small continuous
loads like recharging batteries are surprisingly troublesome. We can
discuss it more later.
Also, dry composting toilets need to be treated very kindly. They like
to be on the north side to get sun to heat the chambers. This starts to
set the location of the bath area. Also, whereas with flush toilet
systems, a second toilet is simply the cost of the toilet and some
plumbing, two composting toilets generally requires the set up of two
full systems. I really like the aerated treatment plant systems because
the water id reused, and there is very little tearing up the ground for
absorption trenches"
After our phone conversation we decided we'd look into wind power as well as solar, and also reconsider whether to connect to the mains or not. Apparently if you can connect to mains for less than about A$20-25,000 it will be cheaper than solar in the long run, once you take into account cost of replacing batteries in 10 years, etc. And of course, you can still have some things solar, eg solar hot water system. We also changed our mind on the toilets and are going to go with Eric's recommendation of an aerated treatment plant system. It means we use water to flush the toilet but it is all recycled so we'll be able to have the cleaned water to go on the garden (onto anything but vegetables apparently). Also it means that we can have more than one toilet... the problem with the dry composting toilet is that if you want to add another one it is the same cost as for the first; whereas with normal plumbing the incremental cost is a lot lower.
One of the most important things we discussed was the utilities. Here are Eric's comments from an email:
"Two things jumped out as issues to consider early on. One is the idea of
using solar power instead of mains. (We lived for five years out in the
bush with solar power.) Some of the things on the wish list look a bit
ambitious with solar power system unless it is a very big one. Big loads
like air conditioning and dryers are difficult, and small continuous
loads like recharging batteries are surprisingly troublesome. We can
discuss it more later.
Also, dry composting toilets need to be treated very kindly. They like
to be on the north side to get sun to heat the chambers. This starts to
set the location of the bath area. Also, whereas with flush toilet
systems, a second toilet is simply the cost of the toilet and some
plumbing, two composting toilets generally requires the set up of two
full systems. I really like the aerated treatment plant systems because
the water id reused, and there is very little tearing up the ground for
absorption trenches"
After our phone conversation we decided we'd look into wind power as well as solar, and also reconsider whether to connect to the mains or not. Apparently if you can connect to mains for less than about A$20-25,000 it will be cheaper than solar in the long run, once you take into account cost of replacing batteries in 10 years, etc. And of course, you can still have some things solar, eg solar hot water system. We also changed our mind on the toilets and are going to go with Eric's recommendation of an aerated treatment plant system. It means we use water to flush the toilet but it is all recycled so we'll be able to have the cleaned water to go on the garden (onto anything but vegetables apparently). Also it means that we can have more than one toilet... the problem with the dry composting toilet is that if you want to add another one it is the same cost as for the first; whereas with normal plumbing the incremental cost is a lot lower.
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